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Adjournment Sine Die

27 Sep

English: US Congress on Capitol Hill, Washingt...

English: US Congress on Capitol Hill, Washington DC (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

For the past 15 years or so, I’ve been aware of an argument within the “patriot” community that runs something like this:

Seven southern States of America walked out of the Second Session of the Thirty-sixth Congress on March 27, A.D. 1861.  In so doing, the Constitutional due process quorum necessary for Congress to vote was lost and Congress was adjourned sine die, or “without day.” To some, this meant that there was no lawful quorum to set a specific day and time to reconvene.

Some people argue that once Congress adjourned “sine die” in A.D. 1861, it permanently ceased to exist and could never again be lawfully reconvened. Therefore, they argue that any alleged “Congress” since A.D. 1861 is illusory and fraudulent and any laws passed since A.D. 1861 are unconstitutional, null and void.

I don’t believe that “sine die” argument has much weight.  Why?

First, because Wikipedia defines “adjournment sine die” as follows:

 

“Adjournment sine die (from the Latin “without day”) means “without assigning a day for a further meeting or hearing”. To adjourn an assembly sine die is to adjourn it for an indefinite period. A legislative body adjourns sine die when it adjourns without appointing a day on which to appear or assemble again.

“It can be used in reference to legislatures whose terms or mandates are coming to an end, and it is anticipated that this particular body will not meet again.  A legislative body adjourned in this way may be called back into special session, a reason why sine die adjournment rather than dissolution may be preferred in some cases.

“A corporate board might adjourn sine die if the corporation were being sold, merged, or liquidated.

“A court may also adjourn a matter sine die, which means the matter is stayed permanently. This may be due to various reasons, for example if the case is started with a wrong procedure chosen the judge may adjourn the matter sine die so that the party may choose to start the action again with the correct procedure. It may also be thus adjourned if there is no possibility of proceeding in the foreseeable future – for example an action may be adjourned sine die if the individual is in prison and there is no prospect of continuing the action at that time. In a sine die adjournment of this type, the hearing stands open indefinitely, and could theoretically be resumed if the situation changed.”

 

Wikipedia is not the final authority on the definition of “sine die,” but it’s still worth noting that an even an “adjournment sin die” can be reconvened into a “special session”.  Thus, an “adjournment sin die” is not necessarily permanent.

Secondly, each “Congress” is numbered and distinct.  There’s a completely new Congress elected every two years.  Congress #1 ceases to exist and Congress #2 begins.  Congress #2 ceases to exist, and then Congress #3 begins.  If I understand correctly, each new Congress starts in January after an election, and lasts a maximum of 24 months.  Then the next Congress takes office in another January and lasts for a maximum of 24 months.

But just because a Congress can last for a maximum of 24 months doesn’t mean that it must last for the full 24 months.  A Congress might only meet for 6 months in the first year after it’s elected, adjourn for six months, go home, and then come back for another 6 months in the second year after it’s elected.  This was particularly true in the first century or so after this country started when our Congress wasn’t a full time hustle.

Thus, it would be entirely possible for the 17th Congress to adjourn “sine die” in July of the second year of its existence, never return to Washington DC and thereby cut short its total existence from a maximum of 24 months to just 19 months.  But the fact that the 17th Congress adjourned “sine die” and ceased to exist before its 24-month maximum had expired, has no bearing on the next election of the next (18th) Congress.

I don’t care if the People caught every member of the 17th Congress and hanged ‘em all.  Neither those hypothetical hangings, nor any “sine die” adjournment are capable of amending the Constitution.  I.e., the Constitution makes no proviso for all future Congresses to cease to exist simply because one Congress screwed up.

When (as per the Constitution) the next election takes place in November and the new (18th) Congress is elected, that new Congress will be seated again in the following January and will hold office for a maximum of 24 months.  If that 18th Congress is also hanged, or prematurely adjourns “sine die,” the Constitution specifies that the next election will be held in November and those elected to the 19th Congress will take office the following January for a maximum of 24 months.

The Constitution does not declare that the premature cessation of any one Congress terminates all future Congresses.  No matter what, no Congress will last for more than 24 months, some Congresses may expire in less than 24 months, but—so long as the Constitution has any authority—a completely new and distinct Congress will be elected every 24 months.

The “Congress” is not a single entity that’s been in continuous existence since the late 1700s.  There’s a completely new and separate Congress elected every two years that holds office for a maximum of 24 months. When one Congress ends has no bearing on the legitimacy of the next Congress.

If I understand correctly, we are currently enduring the 112th “Congress”.  That means there’ve been 111 previous “Congresses” and, starting next January, there will be a 113th Congress.  The fact that any one of those earlier 111 “Congresses” adjourned sine die has no bearing on the subsequent elections and constitutional existence of the other 110 “Congresses”.

I always stand to be corrected.  However, so far as I can see, the argument that because one Congress adjourned “sine die” all future Congresses are rendered unconstitutional is false.  In fact, pending correction, I regard that argument as irrational.

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92 Comments

Posted by on September 27, 2012 in Uncategorized

 

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92 Responses to Adjournment Sine Die

  1. Don

    September 27, 2012 at 2:07 PM

    Jerry Lee has brought this “sine die” subject up years ago. I wish people could receive credit for their knowledge & sharing of information to hopefully help those of us who are still trying to untangle the mess we are in.

     
  2. patrick

    September 27, 2012 at 3:13 PM

    Adask i’m pretty sure my comment sparked this…please take it further though b/c i’m sitting here going ya i dont disagree with a single thing here…but i have a point that wasn’t covered above.

    your arguments invalidates my earlier comment, that is obvious. however the distinction of this claim is based on a deeper de jure vs de facto incorporated government body vs an organic one (how do you have an organic non corporate government is the real question i havent been able to answer my self satisfactorily?)

    wasn’t the country a CORP from the beginning either way? the CORP nature was well developed in the prior few hundred years before our founding fathers made their declaration. even if the Constitution itself is a trust instrument and anytime spent at 1215.org will open some interesting points, wouldn’t it be incorporatated?

    let me ask you then, do you also support one constitution or two? the famous missing 13th? curious…

    just found this, i’ll read and add to this if need be…
    http://adask.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/the-organic-laws-of-the-united-states-of-america/#more-6862

     
    • Don

      September 27, 2012 at 4:44 PM

      patrick,

      You say: “your arguments invalidates my earlier comment….”

      Where is your “earlier comment?” I would like to read it.. I saw the”famous missing 13th” in a law library in “The State of Indiana,or more than likely, it was IN. It was in a locked glass enclosure. I have also seen it in several lawbooks, & even “State Constitutions.” Going way way back.

       
    • Adask

      September 27, 2012 at 5:17 PM

      The Constitution of the United States is the document that “incorporated” the “United States” and/or the “Government of the United States”. But there are “corporations” and there are “corporations”. The “United States” had to be “incorporated”–just as The State of Texas had to be “incorporated”. Without some sort of instrument that people can agree to that created or incorporated some “entity” called “The State of Texas” or the “United States” or “The United States of America,” how could those “entities” be deemed to exist?

      But, the fact that the “United States” was incorporated (given a quasi-corporeal, but fictional “body”) by The Constitution of the United States does not mean that that “corporation” is exactly the same as some corporation incorporated under the statutory laws of the “United States” or “The State of Texas”.

      The corporations created by our State and federal constitutions were created by the direct authority of the People. These are not statutory corporations. Unlike GM, IBM and Microsoft Inc, the corporations created by the People are not subject to the statutory authority of our State and federal governments.

      So, when we’re talking about “corporate government,” the question becomes “incorporated by whose authority?”

      I suspect that there are two sets of government “corporations”: 1) those “constitutional” corporations incorporated by the People; and 2) those statutory corporations incorporated by the government–or even some foreign source–other than the People.

      I’m not at all sure how to exploit this hypothesis. Perhaps when we deal with the “Department of Transportation” we might expressly ask “Who/what incorporated this entity?” But I suspect that modern “corporate” government may be a conglomerate of private corporations incorporated under statutory authority rather than a constitutional entity incorporated by the People.

      I don’t have much in-depth knowledge of corporations, but I suspect that every corporation is designed to serve the best interests of a particular set of “shareholders”. The constitutional corporations created by our States of the Union would be intended to serve the best interests of the People of the particular State. If those constitutional corporations were replaced or supplanted by some other set of deceptively similar statutory corporations, the new corporations would be designed and chartered for the purpose of serving the best interests of some entity(ies) other than the People. If you weren’t “shareholders” in these alternative corporations, you might be deemed “customers” in commerce rather than men and women entitled to spiritual rights and liberties. If you weren’t “shareholders” in these alternative corporations, you could not benefit from the operation of these alternative corporations.

      I was one of the first to right about the missing 13th Amendment.

      As for “two constitutions,” I think that’s possible. I’ve seen a few references to the Constitution of A.D. 1787 and I’ve seen many references to the Constitution of A.D. 1789. These alternative references may be nothing more than innocent mistakes caused by people who confuse the date when the Constitution was proposed by Congress (A.D. 1787) with the date the Constitution was first ratified by the People of nine States and thereby became “established” in A.D. 1789.

      But, if you like conspiracy theories, it’s possible that while these two constitutions are word-for-word identical in terms of content, but they may be diametrically opposed in terms of authority. It is conceivable that one Constitution was somehow made effective by Congress in A.D. 1787 and another Constitution was subsequently ratified by the People in A.D. 1789. Even though the texts of the two constitutions might be identical, their authorities would differ. Under the Constitution of A.D. 1787, Congress (which hypothetically “ratified” that Constitution) would be the sovereign. Under the Constitution of A.D. 1787, the People (who ratified that Constitution) would be the sovereigns.

      If this hypothesis were valid, I doubt that the Founders intentionally allowed Congress to “ratify” a “Constitution of the United States” in A.D. 1787. But they might’ve made some mistake or oversight that could’ve been later exploited (probably after A.D. 1933; almost certainly after A.D. 1948; definitely no later than circa A.D. 1971) by our bankrupt, “emergency” government to allow it to continue to operate and oppress under the alleged “Constitution” of A.D. 1787.

      I’m not alleging that this hypothesis is true. I’m simply saying the two-constitution hypothesis is plausible, intriguing and there may be a little supporting evidence.

      Assuming the hypothesis were correct, how would you defeat the “false” Constitution of A.D. 1787? Simply specify that all of your references to Articles of the Constitution were to “The Constitution of the United States of A.D. 1789″ or to “The Constitution of the United States first ratified by the People of the United States in A.D. 1789,” etc..

       
      • Don

        September 27, 2012 at 5:51 PM

        To Alfred,et al.

        If you were dealing with people who had any integrity you would more than likely get somewhere,i.e. per you comment of:

        I’m not at all sure how to exploit this hypothesis. Perhaps when we deal with the “Department of Transportation” we might expressly ask “Who/what incorporated this entity?” But I suspect that modern “corporate” government may be a conglomerate of private corporations incorporated under statutory authority rather than a constitutional entity incorporated by the People.

        Since you are not dealing with people who have ANY integrity it seems to me you would be beating a dead horse, or butting your head against a stone wall. They are agents of Satan whether they know it or not. I have dealt with many of them & the one’s I have dealt with are all the same.

         
      • Don

        October 1, 2012 at 1:01 PM

        Alfred,
        Re: your comment in pertinent part: “As for “two constitutions………..”

        What is the necessity of two (2) power clauses in the “ONE Constitution” then? The first power clause in pertinent part says in Article 1, & section 8:

        The Congress shall have Power………. AND, To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

        This should be sufficient, don’t you think? Well, at least for that which is “necessary & proper,” but apparently the 39th congress didn’t think it was sufficient & instead decided to do what was “appropriate.”

        The 2nd power clause begins with the 13th Amendment, & says:
        Section 2
        Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

        Same power clause is in the 14th,15th and other WAR amendments.

        You,Alfred,say in pertinent part,”But, if you like conspiracy theories,……”
        To me,Conspiracy Theory, with Jesse Ventura is “BULLSEYE” & not BS.

         
      • PatriotOne

        October 3, 2012 at 6:57 PM

        I thought the several States ratified the Constitution?

        I also wonder how a gang of Men seeking freedom could declare that words on paper be enforced perpetually upon all other Men, espically when those same words do not force any Man to serve. Nowhere do those words say “any Man refusung to serve as President shall be shot”, neither do those words appoint any Man to do the shooting.

        I also wonder how, where the Constitution compells no Man to serve, the Men serving seem to be able to compell all Men to do various things under threat of arrest and at the barrell of a gun?

        All this is F’n amazing to me…

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation

        “”On June 12, 1776, a day after appointing a committee to prepare a draft of the Declaration of Independence, the Second Continental Congress resolved to appoint a committee of 13 to prepare a draft of a constitution for a union of the states. The committee met repeatedly, and chairman John Dickinson presented their results to the Congress on July 12, 1776. There were long debates on such issues as sovereignty, the exact powers to be given the confederate government, whether to have a judiciary, and voting procedures.[7] The final draft of the Articles was prepared in the summer of 1777 and the Second Continental Congress approved them for ratification by the individual states on November 15, 1777, after a year of debate.[8] In practice, the Articles were in use beginning in 1777; the final draft of the Articles served as the de facto system of government used by the Congress (“the United States in Congress assembled”) until it became de jure by final ratification on March 1, 1781; at which point Congress became the Congress of the Confederation. Under the Articles, the states retained sovereignty over all governmental functions not specifically relinquished to the national government. The individual articles set the rules for current and future operations of the United States government. It was made capable of making war and peace, negotiating diplomatic and commercial agreements with foreign countries, and deciding disputes between the states, including their additional and contested western territories. Article XIII stipulated that “their provisions shall be inviolably observed by every state” and “the Union shall be perpetual”. “”

         
  3. dasanco

    September 27, 2012 at 3:34 PM

    Article. I. Section. 4. … The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

    … and additional, if IN-SESSION ALREADY …

    Article. I. Section. 5. … Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

    ———————-

    So the question becomes … did they convene as the Trust indenture required, or as was lawfully rescheduled and/or with proper notice to each House?

    … If not, did the Trust’s settlor(s) take action to correct the breach(s)?

    Ultimately … if a trust indenture (without severability) is breached and the settlor(s) (and/or beneficiaries for that matter) fail (for whatever reason) to correct (or re-institute) the trust … can it still exist??

    If the trust CAN exist without duty to the indenture, why would the indenture need to exist in the first place. They could simply be called ‘guide-lines’ and the trustees could simply do what-ever they pleased, right??

     
    • Don

      September 27, 2012 at 5:30 PM

      Hi dasanco, & in regards to your comment on September 27, 2012 at 3:34 PM

      I believe this is why we have two “U.S.constitutions” on our hands. Here is my uneducated frontier gibberish explanation.

      First of all we have Article 1 Section 8, last paragraph which I call the 1st “Power Clause” & in which Congress shall have power,

      To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

      Keep in mind the words,”necessary & proper,” vested by THIS CONSTITUTION of the United States OR in ANY Department or Officer thereof.

      This should be sufficient i.e. that which is stated above.

      Now we have a little problem here with what follows.

      Beginning with the “13th, which is the 1ST WAR Amendment, we have another “POWER CLAUSE.”

      Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

      SO “they” go from doing whatever is “necessary and proper” to doing what is appropriate??

      PLEASE Give me a break !!! YES The 39th Congress gave themselves POWER to usurp doing

      that which is necessary & Proper, to doing what was “appropriate” to achieve their evil end result.

      Look at all the power clauses in ALL the WAR Amendments, 13th, 14th, 15th & on.

      This I also know, the “original Constitution of 1787″ Is purviewed NOW through the Power Clauses

      beginning with the 13th where it is APPROPRIATE. In other words the “guarantees” of the 1st ten

      articles in addition only mean what appropriate legislation say they mean.

       
    • Adask

      September 27, 2012 at 5:42 PM

      It seems to me that the trust is “self-healing” in this regard: if we elect a bunch of bozos who fail to discharge their fiduciary duties as Congressmen, they’ll be out of office automatically in 24 months and a bunch of new-and-improved bozos will automatically take their place. In theory, one Congress of errant bozos can’t do so much harm that the harm can’t be rectified by the next Congress.

      But, again, consider the definition provided by Wikipedia that says that a legislature that adjourns sine die can still be reconvened by a “special session”.

      So far, I can’t see any evidence that the an adjournment sine die can do any real harm to the Constitution or the validity of any subsequent Congress that’s elected according to the terms of the Constitution.

      It might be argued that the adjournment sine die of A.D. 1861 was unconstitutional. But the fact that some officers have breached the Constitution is not evidence that the Constitution or any part of it is dead. It’s only evidence that those errant officers should’ve been charged with treason and hanged. That didn’t exactly happen, but given that the adjournment sine die of A.D. 1861 helped precipitate the Civil War, I’d say the perpetrators paid a very serious price for their breach.

       
      • dasanco

        September 27, 2012 at 7:46 PM

        It sounds like you are getting a bit mythical … the constitution is not magically. It has no special commercial endowment.

        If a trust requires A, B and C … then B no longer occurs, barring a severability cause, the trust collapses. The Settlors and/or perhaps the beneficiaries are re-create the trust (after perhaps pursuing punishment/damages of the breachers), but this didn’t (has not) happened. The trustees cannot re-start the trust, as that would make them Settlors, and therefore making it a completely DIFFERENT agreement.

         
      • Don

        October 1, 2012 at 4:21 PM

        Dear Alfred,
        You say in pertinent part:
        But the fact that some officers have breached the Constitution …… This is aka TREASON !!! AND it applies to ALL OFFICERS who follow their lead, i.e., The 39th Congress & ON.

        Chief Justice Marshall, asks a relevant question and gives the answer in Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch, 137, 179, wherein, he said: “Why does a judge swear to discharge his duties agreeably to the constitution of the United States, if that constitution forms no rule for the government, if it is closed upon him, and cannot be inspected by him? If such be the real state of things, this is worse than solemn mockery. To prescribe, or to take this oath, becomes equally a CRIME.” [ Comment: Chief Justice Marshall, does not say it becomes a civil matter or a civil rights violation, he says it is a CRIME, A CRIMINAL MATTER] !!!
        I emphasise this only for other students like me. I keep forgetting that you(Alfred) have sensitive ears.

         
  4. Anon4fun

    September 27, 2012 at 5:16 PM

    Great article. Congress gets its authority from the Constitution, not the previous Congress. The “sine die” patriot myth looks like more of the same misdirection in constant supply from Big Brother’s little helpers. Anyone knowledgeable enough to put this fake story together would have to know better. Yet it seems plausible enough to someone new to the subject.

     
  5. palani

    September 27, 2012 at 6:53 PM

    The Fourteenth Amendment (Amendment XIV) to the United States Constitution was adopted on July 28, 1868 (as certified by the Secretary of State).

    Up to July 28th, AD1868 one congress was seated under a given set of rules.

    On July 29th, AD1868 and after another congress was seated under a completely different set of rules.

    Both congresses carry the title “the 40th Congress” but the rules they follow were completely different (as in “insurrection”)

    The 14th amendment provides: “neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States”. This could only be interpreted as the congress prior to July 28, AD1868 notifying the congress after July 28, AD1868 that they were cut loose and on their own. A notice of this sort can only take place AFTER the date of the notice and not before.

    Then the 40th congress prior to July 29th, AD1868 adjourned sine die to make way for the traitors that replaced them.

     
    • Don

      September 27, 2012 at 7:18 PM

      Well said Palani,i.e., Your message of/on September 27, 2012 at 6:53 PM

      By the way, Is the “driving in commerce” commentary over? Did we run out of space? If not please tell me what you think of my message of/on September 26, 2012 at 9:42 PM

      It is the last message posted,at this time.

       
    • Adask

      September 27, 2012 at 8:49 PM

      I understand that some “amendments” to the Constitution are of questionable authenticity. The 14th was ratified by Southern States under force of arms. The 16th was ratified by outright fraud.

      Even so, it’s required that Amendments be ratified by the People in “conventions” and/or by the Legislatures of the States of the Union. The Amendments are not, in theory, a “notice” from one Congress to the next. They are laws passed by the People to amend the “People’s Law”–the Constitution. So far as I know, Congress cannot lawfully amend the Constitution. Not yet, anyway. If you have evidence that Congress amended the Constitution, you have grounds to have that Amendment nullified.

      Congress could certainly propose an Amendment and trick the gullible public into ratifying something that borders on national suicide. But Congress can’t, by its own power and authority, amend the Constitution. That’s a job for the People.

      Is it possible that the 14th Amendment created a “completely different” set of rules for Congress? Sure.

      The People have the right to amend the Constitution any time they please, any way they please. If we care to amend the Constitution to mandate that all Congressmen must wear beanies with propellers on top and that they signify voting Yes by making their propeller turn clockwise, and vote No by making the propeller turn counter-clockwise, we can do it. Would such amendment change the rules Congress operated under? Of course. Every Amendment can be described as changing the rules that at least one branch of government operates under.

      So, changing the rules Congress operates under is not a big deal–so long as the fundamental rule changes are made by the the People’s amendment rather than by congressional statute.

      The question is not whether the Amendments change the rules government operates under (of course they do)–the question is whether Whee duh Peepul have brains enough to avoid being tricked by government into supporting Amendments that are contrary to our best interests.

      Did Congress trick the people into ratifying the 14th Amendment? Almost certainly. But it was still the People’s right and power to amend and if they abused that power through fear, ignorance or greed, that’s a fault of the People.

      The good news is that anytime the People decide to correct previous errors or previous amendments, they can do so if they get organized and make it happen. It’s not easily done, but it’s doable.

       
      • palani

        September 28, 2012 at 7:28 AM

        Al

        As reported in the Providence Morning Herald on July 3, AD1868 … In one paragraph soldiers are still under arms, in the next paragraph the legislators “voluntarily” agreed to amend the constitution. On such a foundation is displayed an insecure belief in democracy and the rule of law.
        http://i46.tinypic.com/2ni6ru9.jpg

         
      • PatriotOne

        September 30, 2012 at 11:52 PM

        I would hypothesize that an Amendment to the Constitution shall, if it eliminate-modify a previous Article-paragraph-sentence, state clearly the eliminated-modification part.

        As shown below AMENDMENT XI makes no mention of Article III Section 2. It would seem to me that AIII S2 was not changed at all.
        When Congress changes a Code they state in the changing eg ‘section 456 changes section 123 by replacing the word ‘and’ with the word ‘or’.

        If properly done, the Eleventh Amendment should read ‘this Amendment nullifies and replaces Article III Section 2 with the following…’

        Although the Note: addresses a change the actual Amendment does not.

        Article III
        Section. 2.

        The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;–to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;–to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;–to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;–to Controversies between two or more States;– between a State and Citizens of another State,–between Citizens of different States,–between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

        AMENDMENT XI
        Passed by Congress March 4, 1794. Ratified February 7, 1795.

        [Note: Article III, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by amendment 11.]

        The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.
        —————————————————
        Shown below AMENDMENT XIV supposes to change nothing, or does it? As far as “freeing slaves’ the 14th cannot deal with the People because the Constitution does not deal with the People. The 14th does however refer to ‘persons’, these ‘persons’ being elected / born. Only those elected and serving under the Constitution are subjected to the jurisdiction thereof.

        The United States, being nothing more than words on paper, a natural Man and Woman cannot be born or (in LAW the word ‘or’ means ‘and/or’) naturalized IN the fiction United States. Naturalization is restricted to allowing People the ability to seek and serve within elected office if they were born at another country and migrated to one of the US’sA. This is an allegiance issue.

        A child coming out of the womb of its Mother is not subjected to the Constitution. A Man or Woman accepting to serve within an elected office, being born into the office through an election, is subjected to the jurisdiction thereof.
        The 14th ONLY addresses congress and applies to congress, it does not apply to the People.

        AMENDMENT XIV
        Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

        Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.

        Section 1.
        All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

        Section 2.
        Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

        Section 3.
        No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

        Section 4.
        The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

        Section 5.
        The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

        *Changed by section 1 of the 26th amendment.

        ———————————–

        I make the above statements because the Bill of Rights are referred to as Amendments but they do not change any provision of the Constitution.

         
  6. Randy

    September 27, 2012 at 7:12 PM

    Maybe congress reconvened under new rules and objectives after the adjournment. Just a guess.

     
    • palani

      September 27, 2012 at 7:55 PM

      @Randy
      Precisely correct. Every congress since the one that walked out in 1861 sits by resolution. Whose resolution? Why, the executive branch order calling them back to session.

       
      • Randy

        September 27, 2012 at 8:52 PM

        @palani: Makes sense to me.

        @Don: Right!

         
      • Don

        September 28, 2012 at 6:50 PM

        “The North” (Union troops) “displayed” a flag of red,white,& blue, with a yellow fringe border. “The South” flag was entirely different. I think the North won the war,Father against son, Brother against Brother,WAR. Great war to destroy the “Family” idea.

        I see this same MILITARY Flag in ALL the courtrooms I have “visited.” This flag IS a “proper flag” BUT only in a MILITARY Courtroom, AS FAR as courtrooms are concerned. I can prove this.
        This doesn’t make what we are fighting any easier, I just threw it in, why I don’t really know, since it doesn’t help to “cure” anything.

         
      • Don

        September 30, 2012 at 3:18 AM

        To:Palani,
        “……the executive branch order calling them back to session. BRANCH ?? What happened to the “Departments?” Is the following interesting?

        “All process of this Court issues in the name of the President of the United States,” accord, Supreme Court Rules, Process; Mandates, (Supreme Court of The United States)

        The Legislative and Judicial BRANCHES may be justifiably called, extensions of the Executive BRANCH. What happened to the, DEPARTMENTS? A branch, is an extension of its source, but a department is a separation from another body. Department is defined as, a separate part or division. Branch is defined as, “any offshoot of a MAIN stem, as the branch of a stream; an offshoot, lateral extension, or subdivision, a tributary stream.”

        (The stream has risen above its “Source.”)

         
    • Don

      September 27, 2012 at 8:28 PM

      Randy,
      You say in pertinent part: “Maybe congress reconvened under new rules and objectives…”

      Well, I have heard that rules were made to be broken & thar ain’t no doubt in my mind that anything goes, is “APPROPRIATE” to reach the OBJECTIVE. AFTER ALL we are in a “spiritual war” And ALL is fair in love & WAR, RIGHT???

       
  7. pop de adam

    September 30, 2012 at 9:33 AM

    Suppose “Sine Die” situation occured presently and the Constitution as an endevour was to be redone. Wouldn’t this new organic or corporeal document need to delivered to the legislatures of the 50 states for their appoval and either signed or vetoed by the president of the state AKA govenor? Where it may be said to have accepted or adopted it? I might be completely incorrect on this and please correct me if I am wrong: Wouldn’t this require amendments to be subject to the same method. It seems to me as original incorporators(settlors?), these state legislatures and govenors should be the ones deciding issues of amendments to the organic constitution. I thought there was something fishy about the manner in which Philander Knox declared the 16th amendment ratified, the very end of an autumn/winter session, where most of congress had left for christmas/holiday break, according to what I’ve read. Even if Congress were to declare the passage of an amendment, if it were not passed as outlined above it would seem to be functionable only upon themselves and their immediate subjects and/or employees. But if it were otherwise, we might ask then who or what is subject to the passage of a “federal amendment, forwarded by senators and representatives in congress so convened. Suppose it might be otherwise and the federal government is not the subject/servant in this arrangement, created by the states. Who or what might be the alternatives? Reverse the roles, the federal government becomes the originator/settlor and the states become the subjects, this doesn’t directly act upon the individual people as the states might be the proper subjects for congress to act upon. It would seem to me that if this tax were to be collected, the federal government would only ever see returns/collections from the 50 states and other various territories/districts, states would need to appropriate collections from their similarly subject counties/cities/towns. You send money to your town, your town now has income and sends money to the state, your state now has income and sends money to the federal government. This brings us to the fact many people are paying monies to all the laminate layers of government when perhaps they are only subject to one perhaps even none. Anyway it seems as their might be two pyramid like concepts at work here one where the mass is top oriented and the other where the mass is bottom oriented. It seems to me these two concepts have never reconciled themselves, what we have now doesn’t seem much like either.

    -pop

     
    • Don

      September 30, 2012 at 9:47 PM

      To: pop de adam
      don’t make no diffurnce no how.

       
  8. Jerry Lee

    October 1, 2012 at 1:31 PM

    Congress was adjourned sine die part 1
    October 01 2012
    Congress is alive an well they just are operating in their Territorial capacity as provided in Art I Sec * Cl !7 & Art IV, Sec 3 Cl 2. Please read.
    I do believe the 14th Amendment sets up the “NEW United States”. It is Fact that this 14th Amendment did not, could not met constitutional muster, it fail in every since to be properly ratified. Not only have court decisions stated such but also Congressional records verified the 14th amendment does not fall within those guidelines establish by the people’s constitution and is Military Law.
    *Congressional Records June 13th 1967 pp 15641-15646, even after 100 years Congress will do nothing to return to the Republic, as the Record states We are still under Military Rule.
    Within the purported amendment one will find that a New Political scheme was set forth to establish a De facto/Military Government which later would come about by the Act of 1871 in which the United States D. C. was established, also with the aid of The Military Reconstructions Acts.
    I too believe that each cession of Congress creates and establish the proper Federal Government of the people as Al suggest it just ani’t applied to the Laws of the Union but rather Military territorial law (private International Law).
    There was no Congress as of March 1861so there could be no Declaration of War, Only a Presidential Proclamation; specifically: an official formal public announcement.
    I think this would imply that the created, Federal Government could not declare War upon the Creator, We the people.
    So as old Abe made his Proclamation Calling fort the Militia and Convening Congress, April 15th 1861 as Commander-in-Chief of the United States, in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution and the laws, have thought fit to call forth, and hereby do call forth, the Militia of the several States of the Union, to the aggregate number of 75,000, in order to suppress said combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed.
    So the ‘War of Northern Aggression’ was ended with the Proclaimed of President Johnson on August 20, 1866; the insurrection in the State of Texas had been completely ended; and his proclamation continued:
    “The insurrection which heretofore existed in the State of Texas is at an end, and is to be henceforth so regarded in that State, as in the other States before named in which the said insurrection was proclaimed to be at an end by the aforesaid proclamation of the second day of April, one thousand, eight hundred and sixty-six. And I do further proclaim that the said insurrection is at an end, and that peace, order, tranquility, and civil authority now exist, in and throughout the whole of the United States of America.”
    Notice he said civil authority now exist, in and throughout the whole of the United States of America. It would appear that all the several states again were on an equal footing within the Republic, AND A LAWFUL CONGRESS WAS IN SECESSION.
    Remember these State governments had received Presidential recognition and, through their legislatures, they had participated actively in the ratification and adoption of the (purported) Thirteenth Amendment abolishing slavery. Thus this would imply that Congress its self had Recognized the Union of states.
    Now comes the 14th amendment, one of the ‘War’ amendments.
    Seem we have a problem Washington!!!!
    Ten Southern states did oppose the ratification of the 14th amendment along with Ohio and New Jersey.
    What to do? Very simple, pass the Military Reconstructions Acts to over ride the President by veto who stated these Acts were ‘Unconstitutional’.
    And overthrow the Lawful government. The Military Reconstruction Act of March 7th, 1867: This Act had, as one of its major objectives, the attainment of ultimate ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment through compelling and coercing ratification by the ten Southern States, which had rejected it.
    The Act dealt with these ten Southern States, referred to as “rebel States” in its various provisions. It opened with a recital that “no legal State government” existed in these States. It placed these States under Military Rule. Louisiana and Texas were grouped together as the Fifth Military District, and placed under the domination of an army officer appointed by the President. Remember Military Rule not Marital Law.
    Notwithstanding the Act was promptly passed over the Presidents and was veto by the required two-thirds majority in each House.
    Seems the Representative of Wisconsin, a Northerner and a Conservative Republican. During the floor debate on the bill, said:
    “My friend has said what has been said all around me, what is said every day: the people of the South have rejected the constitutional amendment, and therefore we will march upon them and force them to adopt it at the point of the bayonet, and establish military power over them until they do adopt it.”

    All civilian authorities were placed under the dominant authority of the Military Government. This Military Democracy is in force and effect today as one may see the “flag’ of the Victor flying over the state Capitols and in it’s Courts. The yellow fringe flies indoors per Military regulations.

    Military Rule took over in the ten Southern States to initiate the process of conditioning a subjugated people to an ultimate acceptance of the Fourteenth Amendment.

    “New governments were erected in those States (and in others) under the direction of Congress.” and that these new (Military appointed) legislatures were to ratified the 14th Amendment.

    Coleman v. Miller, 507 U. S. 448, 59 S. Ct. 972
    “The legislatures of Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina had rejected the amendment in November and December, 1866. New governments were erected in those States (and in others) under the direction of Congress. The new legislatures ratified the amendment, that of North Carolina on July 4, 1868, that of South Carolina on July 9, 1868, and that of Georgia on July 21, 1868.”
    I believe that these ‘New States and governments” are the start of the Administrative State that are in place today, ie ‘this State’ and ‘the State’ as evil has no time table.
    As Administrative law is outside the scope of the Constitution as I have written previous.

    References may be found in the constitution of the Virginia of 1870 in Article I, the Bill of Rights in Section 3, it is conclusive evidence that the “laws of Congress” are the “supreme law of the land,” to wit:

    Sec. 3. That the Constitution of the United States, and the laws of Congress passed in pursuance thereof, constitute the supreme law of the land, to which paramount allegiance and obedience are due from every citizen, anything in the constitution; ordinances, or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

    Do we have other evidence of these “laws of Congress” are the supreme Law of the Land after the Civil War? Every wonder why the constitutions of all of the southern States were all changed, under the mandatory control of Congress as provisional Military Governments? It was to extinguish the sovereign authority of the several States i.e. end State’s rights, establish only registered voters (ending qualified Electors being a citizen of New-York, etc.) by implementing the “citizen of the United States’, and extinguishing the Unalienable Rights of the people.
    Beyond this, the whole idea that Article IV, § 4, could confer upon Congress power to alter the governmental structure of a State—particularly a governmental structure of the general type relating in the thirteen original States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution
    So I now believe that the 14th amendment was the foundation to the presumed overthrow of Our Constitutional Government de jure. End Part 1 of 3

     
    • Don

      October 1, 2012 at 4:26 PM

      Hello dear one,

      Scroll up to the very top of this page & see the first comment. Now I will read your message.

       
  9. Jerry Lee

    October 1, 2012 at 1:32 PM

    Sine Die Part 2

    The 14th Amendment; my interpretation.

    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United State and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    Section 1 says who is subject to the jurisdiction thereof. This would encase the “District” ten miles squared, the territories and possessions. Also the Southern states that were converted into New Territorial Federal States by the unconstitutional Military Reconstruction Acts, and later deceive the remaining Republics to conform with the New Military Democracy to become Federal States.
    The rights of man do not come from government; they come from God. The
    reason the founders talked about God so much was that the constitution’s original
    intent was that privileges and immunities do not come from God but from
    government.

    The primary purpose of the 14th amendment was to overturn the doctrine of state citizenship being primary to federal citizenship being primary to those to whom it applies. Afroyim v. Rusk 387 U.S. 253 (1967).
    The 14th amendment states: “and subject to” it does not say everybody is “subject to” that amendment.
    Of course these subjects are within the realm of corporate personhood or the Law of Persons. Slaves were not considered people but property this would carry over into this new amendment for all intent and purposes. Article I, Section 8, Clause17 and Article IV, section 3, Clause 2 would be the cement to seal the (New)deal to come.

    Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial Officers of a State, or members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or is any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

    It is this section I believe in the first sentence enabled today’s Federal Income Tax
    although it was declared Unconstitutional during the “War” to help fund the Unions effort to domination the Southern states. Thus the Income Tax is an internal tax ie Territorial excise tax.

    The supreme Court would later fall under the Executive branch and its Department of Justice would become the arbitrator of justice as the supreme court would become the mouth piece of the Executive as he sits as Commander-in-Chief of the Military Democracy, as we find today the Judicial branch (Art III) has been replaced by Private Commercial Court for profits by and for the Foreign interest that controls the United States D.C. Inc. Now I want you to put on your think’n hats… as a matter in fact it is this section that gives the U S citizen the privilege to register to vote not the 15th amendment. I say the 15th is for the state Citizen to enjoin there self into corporate personhood of the private foreign corporation known as the United States D. C. This section also barred the state Citizens of the Southern state their right to vote until the New United States D. C. was establish.
    The Military Reconstruction Act, as supplemented by later legislation, an particularly the Act of July 19, 1867, 15 Stat. 14, established a system of registration before Boards set up under military auspices, as a predicate for qualifying as voters under the proposed new governments being imposed upon the Southern States.

    The 15th amendment; true it does give the Negro the right (again) to vote in federal elections not state but in the scheme of the big picture it was ratified after the Military Reconstruction Acts (Feb. 3 1870) when all the southern states were converted to the New Federal State making all presumed U S citizen. This was the precursor to the Act of 1871 that establish the government of the ‘District’. Like Johnny Cash says “One Piece at a Time”. I cannot find it but People Of Color could not vote in local election in Ohio until 1923 but could vote in Federal Elections.
    Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President or Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the Untied States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State Legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote or 2/3 or each House, remove such disability.

    Here is where We are today, the Federal Constitution is not redundant it says what it mean, Articles I, II and III do set up the qualifications of eligibilities for the election of Federal officers in each branch of Government (de jure). Why repeat who may hold office, well it doesn’t, Section 3 will be for Officers of the newly formed United States D.C. to come.
    Oaths of Offices may be found in **USC Title 5 Section 2905 (at the end of part 3) is so telling of ‘Who’ they work for and it is not You or Me!
    The Commander-in-Chief will cancel the State of Emergency long enough to either win re election or to have another ‘President’ elected then sign off on USC Title 12 Section 95 (a) & (b) to put the people back under the Trading with the Enemy Act making all presumed US citizens enemies is the United States D.C. and resume the status of Military Dictator ie Commander-in –Chief. End Part 2 of 3

     
    • Adask

      October 1, 2012 at 2:59 PM

      My understanding of the “primary purpose” of the 14th Amendment is based on my reading of the Dred Scott case of A.D. 1858 when the Supreme Court declared that because the Negroes had entered this country as slaves (things) the Supremes (and probably Congress) had no constitutional authority to elevate these “things” to the status of men “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”.

      Could government free the slave-things? Absolutely. But it could not lawfully elevate the slave-things to the status of men of the sort described in the “Declaration of Independence”.

      Thus, government could “free” the slave-things in the same sense that a farmer could open the gate to his pasture and “free” his cows. But the farmer could not turn his cows into fellow farmers.

      And that was the problem the politicians faced in A.D. 1865. The “cows” had been “freed,” but they had not–and perhaps could not–be elevated to the status of men endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.

      So Congress proposed the 14th Amendment whereby they created a secondary, inferior class of national “citizenship” for the “things” (former slaves) to more or less resemble the first class of “citizenship” of the People of the States of the Union.

      I am not alleging that the government still regards the descendants of slaves to be “things”. Maybe they are; maybe they’re not.

      But I am alleging that government used the 14th Amendment to create an inferior class of citizenship for the former slaves. I am further confident that government found being able to treat former slaves as 14th Amendment (inferior) citizens to be so handy, that over time they came to entice all of the posterity of the former “men endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” to also accept 14th Amendment “citizenship”.

      This analysis is consistent with drug laws that presumed all of us to be “animals”. As “animals” we are all reduced to the status of “things” which is tantamount to being property and/or slaves.

       
      • Don

        October 1, 2012 at 4:35 PM

        Alfred, you say in pertinent part:

        “This analysis is consistent with drug laws that presumed all of us to be “animals”. As “animals” we are all reduced to the status of “things” which is tantamount to being property and/or slaves.”

        Exactly, yes indeed !!!

         
      • Jerry Lee

        October 1, 2012 at 6:17 PM

        Al,

        It is fact the 14th amendment gave the Negroes a status, that being a U.S. citizen/person which today the friendly IRS classify these ‘things’ as corporations. The only ‘things’ that the IRS can ‘tax’ are trusts and estates and under the IRC are consider corporations. Yes I know Res=thing ident= identify or Resident. Slaves are sometime ranked not with persons but things.
        My take that the 14th amendment establishes the privilege to vote for citizens of the United States and the New Militarty ‘State’ governments.

        “On the other hand, there is a significant historical fact in all of this. Clearly, one of the purposes of the 13th and 14th Amendments and of the 1866 act and of section 1982 was to give the Negro citizenship. . .”
        Jones v. Alfred H. Mayer Co. (1967), 379 F.2d 33, 43.

        “The object of the 14th Amendment, as is well known, was to confer upon the colored race the right of citizenship.”
        United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 692.

        Yet these court cases do not go far enough, this is a second-class citizenship as it can be found in USC Title 42 Section 1981 & 1982. As it stipulates that the U.S. citizen do not have Unalienable Right but Military civil rights (privileges) granted from the territorial congress.

        The 15th goes on to state the following; 1:The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. It is a Shall Not Amendment.

        All the 15th amendment states that neither the Federal nor the new Military State governments could not stop their common stock (animals) from casting a vote for their corporate officers. Reminds one of the movie ‘Animal Farm’

        Race is not found in Bouvier’s law 1856, but this Merriam Webster definition gives a good overview to that meaning.

        Race:
        1: a breeding stock of animals
        2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
        b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
        3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species;

        I have to say #1: is very interesting being first of several definitions.

        So we both know that gov-co has indeed classified man as just another animal.
        I think #3 is for the elite. lol

        Color was just thrown in to make it look official, as the ‘Red man and Yellow man’ could not vote until later. Sounds like Federal Reserve System.

        Next is ‘previous condition of servitude’, would that be involuntary or voluntary pay no attention to the alleged 13th amendment which mentions involuntary servitude, again the constitution does not repeat its self.

        “A citizen of the United States is a citizen of the federal government…”
        Kitchens v. Steele, 112 F.Supp 383

        With all the fluff removed what is a U.S.citizen? Same as it always have been a ‘Status’
        To the regards of animal that would fall under the Cesuti Que trust, when a child is borne in a State (Estate) under inferior Roman law, three (3) Cestui Que (Vie) Trusts are created upon certain presumptions, specifically designed to deny the child forever any rights of Real Property, any Rights as a Free Person and any Rights to be known as man and woman rather than a creature or animal, by claiming and possessing their Soul or Spirit.

         
      • Adask

        October 1, 2012 at 8:55 PM

        I can’t prove it, but it just now crosses my mind that the word “citizen” might mean “member” or a particular trust. IF that were true, there might be two classes of “citizens”–those who are beneficiaries (People of the States and/or of The United States of America) and those who were fiduciaries (government officers, employees, and 14th Amendment “citizens”). Maybe that’s what the 14th Amendment did. . . . maybe it created a new “universal” class of members of of the State or The United States of America “trusts” who were fiduciaries rather than beneficiaries. Broadly speaking, fiduciaries have all the duties and beneficiaries have all the rights. Beneficiaries aren’t tried. Fiduciaries go to jail.

        Do you think that’s possible?

         
      • Jerry Lee

        October 3, 2012 at 11:32 AM

        Al, I do not remeber where I found the following but may fall into whay you say here.

        Preamble Religious Intent
        The Word “ordain” as used in the Preamble also had relevance, “do ordain” imparted the religious significance required to bring the document within the purviews of Henry’s Statute of Uses, Elizabeth’s Statutes of Charitable Uses and the Statutes of Mortmain, as to make The Constitution a valid, legal document under the English Laws.

        B. Blacks Law Dictionary: Ordain …***…To confer on a person the holy orders of priest or deacon. Establish …***… Found.

        C. Webster’s 1828 Dictionary: Ordain v. To set; to establish a particular office or order; hence, invest with ministerial function or sacerdotal (priesthood) power; to introduce and establish or settle in the pastorale office with the customary forms or solemnities; as to ordain a minister of the gospel.

        (1) In America, men are ordained over a particular church and congregation or as evangelist without the charge of a particular church, or as deacons in the episcopal church.

        Strange as it may sound, the word “ordain” conveys the idea, to this writer, that the Founding Fathers were attempting to show the King of England that they were performing ministerial functions, had established a religious society, and an estate in trust for the members of that society under The Statute of Uses, Statute of Charitable Uses, and Mortmain. This line of thought was upheld, when this writer was researching this document, by the fact that the only place that the word “Constitution” appeared under any subject(18) was Religious Societies.

        D. 66 Am Jur 2d Religious Societies

        1. ’7 Constitution, rules, and regulations. The Governing body of a religious society may adopt a constitution and prescribe rules and regulations as to the government of the society…***…

        2. ’8 Amendment of constitution, changes in confession of faith: So long as not contrary to the laws of the land or to the provisions of the society’s old constitution, the method of submitting proposed amendments to the constitution of a religious association may be devised and proclaimed by the association’s general officers.

        3. ‘ Members, Generally; relationship and rights: The relations, rights, and obligations arising from membership in a religious society are to be determined according to the constitution, rules, or bylaws of the society, as well as by reference to the statutory provisions governing such religious bodies, since all who unite themselves to a religious body do so with an implied consent to its government and are bound by its laws, usages, and customs, and principles,…***…

        True, while there are other organizations that do maintain “constitutions”, the religious overtones and significance found within the Preamble, coupled with the behaviorism of the United States Government as compared to the workings of a religious societies, tells this writer that the Founding Fathers were creating a Religious Society by way of Express Trust, a society whose members could worship in any manner that pleased them and were still heirs to a feesimple absolute estate. If this be the truth of the matter, you are a member of a religious society and “bound by its laws, usages, and customs and principles”. And I have never found a better description and definition of the words “PUBLIC POLICY” anywhere else. However; if as a member of this religious society, you are having Fourteenth Amendment citizenship being imposed upon you, not allowing you to access the Express Trust, then could you possibly see that your freedom of religious affiliation is being denied you?(19)

        If you have a problem with the possibility of a Religion being established in the Preamble, Trusts and Trustees by Bogert, shows that religion can mean many different things:

        4.The word “religion is not a term of exact meaning. It has been defined as:

        a. “the endeavor to secure the conservation of socially recognized values through specific actions that are believed to evoke some agency different from the ordinary ego of the individual, or from other merely human beings, and that imply a feeling of dependence upon this agency;(20)

        b. “the serious and social attitude of individuals or communities toward the power or powers which they conceive as having ultimate control over their interests and destinies;(21)

        c. “faith in the conservation of values;(22)

        d. “the worship of spiritual beings from a sense of need;(23)

        e. “any system of faith in and worship of a divine being or beings.(24)

        Whether a given set of dogmas or rules will be dignified with the name of a religion by a court does not depend upon the name which the settlor has placed upon his trust. …***…It would seem that the court must find some element of spiritual improvement in the plan before it can be properly termed a religion. 66 Am Jur 2d Religious Societies, also revealed other interesting features regarding the Trusts of such societies:

        5. ’48 Determination of nature and existence of trust: In determining whether a trust has been created by a conveyance of property to a religious society, the same rules will be applied as are applicable in the construction of wills. The deed, if any, creating the trust is the primary source for ascertaining what was the form of worship and the doctrine intended by the foundation. Where there is no specific designation in the deed as to the particular religious tenets or doctrines which the gift is to be used to advance or support, the denominational name may indicate the nature of the trust, so far as respects doctrines admitted to be fundamental.

        Please take note that “the same rules will be applied as are applicable in the construction of wills” to a trust created by deed, this is very important. The construction of “wills” is being applied to our trust, to the Articles, and to the Amendments. The Government is applying the Fourteenth Amendment as a will provision based upon this construction, and not knowing any better everyone is going along with it. No one has brought up the fact that it is a trust and deed. Whenever there is a deed mentioned in a conveyance, wills go along in the same breath, they go hand in hand.

        If the Founding Fathers intent behind the Preamble, was to create a Religious society in trust by deed, whose members were free to worship as they wished, they made it perfectly clear in the First Amendment to the Constitution. Not the last, the first. Religion was foremost on their minds, and I am absolutely convinced that a charitable trust to protect religious beliefs, by deed was created in the Preamble. However; the Statute of Charitable Uses (43 Eliz. c 4, 1601) only recognized trusts for the repair of churches not the creation of a church, but that does not mean that the Founding Fathers couldn’t get around that little problem by making the trust appear to be something other than what it was.
        _____________________________________________________

        Footnotes :

        18. , Corporations, trusts, wills, deeds, charities, Religious Societies, Estates, Dower and Curtsy, Title 26, Title 31, etc.

        19. Great Theory, now let’s get out there and prove it.

        20. ” W.K. Wright, Philosophy of Religion, P. 47.

        21. ” J. B. Pratt, The Religious Consciousness, P. 2.

        22. ” H. Hoffding, Philosophy of Religion, P. 98.

        23. ” Menzies, History of Religion.

        24. ” Century Dictionary

         
    • Don

      October 1, 2012 at 8:51 PM

      Alfred, my beloved Boss,posted this excerpt, which says,in pertinent part:

      The primary purpose of the 14th amendment was to overturn the doctrine of state citizenship being primary to federal citizenship being primary to those to whom it applies. Afroyim v. Rusk 387 U.S. 253 (1967).
      .
      The Courts, today, only recognize this much of that statement:

      The primary purpose of the 14th amendment was to overturn the doctrine of state citizenship.

      Only those who have been on the front lines of battle(WAR) know I’m telling the truth.

       
      • Adask

        October 1, 2012 at 10:06 PM

        Hey, Don, I ain’t the “boss” of you–or of anyone else, for that matter.

        Do you know the meaning of “friend”? It means someone of equal rights and equal status. Neither of two friends is superior; neither is inferior. Neither is fiduciary relative to the other; neither is beneficiary relative to the other. Both are equal.

        So, while I ain’t the “boss” of you, I am your friend–unless you deem an inequality between us. Being a “boss” would be evidence of an inequality and a relationship other than “friend”.

         
  10. Jerry Lee

    October 1, 2012 at 1:33 PM

    Sine Die Part 3

    Cont’The 14th Amendment; my interpretation.
    Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
    Yes Section 4; has everything to say about Our current dilemma today, the Private Federal Reserve. That the on going debt for the ‘Civil War’ has yet to be paid, and it won’t; because the U S Inc sold out the America people to Foreign Interest of Europe through the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. It is all too telling that when the Congress ask any Chairman of the Federal Reserve ‘Where’s the Money” and they reply ‘It is none of ‘YOUR’ business American people… why? At the end of the first sentence it reads… shall not be questioned.

    Those bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, add it up Lincoln died on April 15th and all Slave had a bounty on their head it was a 10/40 bond, due in 10 or 40 yrs as it reads…validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned, hence the IRS 1040 Form, tax due on 15th April.
    When the founding fathers meet in public meetings drawing up the Constitution;
    you will also read that the founders held private meetings to the exclusion of the
    public. These private meetings were held to formulate private Roman law (private
    international law) under Article IV Sec. 3 cl.2.

    No federal common law is the reason the federal government can pass notes that are legal tender and lawful money under Article I Section 8. In fact, Article I Section 8 of the Constitution is the only mention of the federal powers that deals with money, not private debt/credit. Norman v. Baltimore & Ohio RR 294 U.S. 312 where Congress noted the distinction between credit and currency

    Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article

    This part is easy this 14th amendment is only applicable in the United States D.C., its Territories and possessions.

    I do believe the ‘War Amendments’ are the *13th, 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th. All which empower the United States D.C. and a method to killed the Republic by Foreign Interest..

    One last word;
    Presidential Executive Order No. 6 **, issued July 20, 1868. Ratification of the 14th Amendment certified as valid, provided the consent of Ohio and New Jersey be deemed as remaining in force despite subsequent withdrawal. **Signed by William H. Seward, Secretary of State. Has the form of a proclamation.
    In this light the 14th (amendment), which has perplexed many, is an Executive Order, not an (Article) of Amendment to the Constitution of the united States of America, albeit a statute and so remains an Executive Order. That all Executive Orders are Territorial in nature.
    ** Title 5>Part III> Subpart A> Chapter 29> Subchapter I> sec 2905
    § 2905. Oath; renewal
    An employee of an Executive agency or an individual employed by the>>government of the District of Columbia<>change in status<<so long as his service is continuous in the agency in which he is employed, unless, in the opinion of the head of the Executive agency, the Secretary of a military department with respect to an employee of his department, or the Commissioners of the District of Columbia, the public interest so requires.
    Congress, Sine Die? I think not they just fail to recognize their true Masters; We the People; Too many of We the people are too ignorant of their Power. End Part 3 of 3

     
  11. Don

    October 1, 2012 at 1:58 PM

    dasanco, Re:Your message in pertinent part, of: September 27, 2012 at 7:46 PM

    “It sounds like you are getting a bit mythical … the constitution is not magically. It has no special commercial endowment.”

    Huh? It ain’t magically? Wow !! I didn’t know that !! I thought it was “magically.” DARN !!! I guess I’m guilty of being “mythically.” Woe is me. Yes, I know what the definition of is,IS. I’m not called SLICK WILLIE for nothing.

     
  12. Don

    October 1, 2012 at 8:35 PM

    To: Jerry Lee,
    Excellent Posts!! I sure hope the individuals,persons,aka SUBJECTS,as we are called, by gov-co, do as I do & cut & paste excerpts you reveal. Thank you for everything you contribute. I tried to write to you the other night & when I was almost through & my computer froze,i.e. quit responding. This was after 2 hours of writing to you,all wasted. Same thing happened per a message to Anon4 fun. It looks like he threw the towel in, I hope not. He is sharp but apples & oranges don’t mix. The apples are the common law(apple of my eye) & the oranges are all of the “statutory law.” Presenting unalienable rights is a lost cause using statutory law to back them up. NO WAY will it work.
    No response is expected. The BEST of everything to you.
    Don

     
  13. Don

    October 1, 2012 at 9:14 PM

    Alfred, & to who it may concern;

    Re: “Beneficiaries aren’t tried. Fiduciaries go to jail.”

    Then,I am a fiduciary, so I reckon it is possible. BUT when they apply no will but their own,e.g.,
    We are increasingly governed not by law or elected representatives but by an unelected, unrepresentative, unaccountable committee of lawyers (Judges,persecuting attorneys)
    applying no will but their own.” (Robert Bork)

    I wish you did not have sensitive ears because there are some words above I would like to put emphasis on.

     
  14. Anon4fun

    October 1, 2012 at 9:52 PM

    Though the official reason for the 14th Amendment was philanthropy for the freed slaves, the real reason was to create a status of servitude under the United States Empire then in formation. Proof of the exaggeration of the problem the 14th Amendment’s advocates were pretending to solve is the simple fact that many blacks were already citizens in certain Free States, even before the Civil War. If citizenship for blacks was possible under the existing paradigm, then the drastic political reform of creating a whole new class of citizenship was unnecessary for that purpose.

     
    • Don

      October 17, 2012 at 12:05 AM

      Anon4fun October 1, 2012 at 9:52 PM

      Right on !!! Bullseye !!!

       
      • Jerry Lee

        October 17, 2012 at 10:25 AM

        To Don,
        The conversion to a Fascist Corporate State was put into play way before the “Civil War” and the credit should go to the American Congress not Mussolini. The 14th amendment’s sole purpose was to create a fascist government under a Military Dictatorship and that tool (14th amendment) along with the ignorance of the people of yesteryear and today. We have become that Corporate Commercial Citizen within the “Corporation” and everyone has that entity attached to him or her either as a creditor or debtor. The question is how do you operate in the money debt system.

        In 1886, . . . in the case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company, 118 U.S. 394,the U.S. Supreme Court decided that a private corporation is a person and entitled to the legal rights and protections the Constitutions affords to any person. Because the Constitution makes no mention of corporations, it is a fairly clear case of the Court’s taking it upon itself to rewrite the Constitution. Far more remarkable, however, is that the doctrine of corporate personhood, which subsequently became a cornerstone of corporate law, was introduced into this 1886 decision without argument. According to the official case record, Supreme Court Justice Morrison Remick Waite simply pronounced before the beginning of argument in the case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company that
        The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, applies to these corporations. We are all of opinion that it does.

        Couple the above with Title 42 USC Sections 1981 and 1982 with the knowledge on hand within the comments of this post these two sections I believe are for Corporations and not the Freed Negro, their freedoms came at Statue at Large 16 Section 254.
        I was fooled myself thinking that these two sections were for the recently freed blacks but have changed my position they are for corporations and other legal fictions at law..

         
  15. Don

    October 1, 2012 at 11:24 PM

    To: Alfred,

    re:Do you know the meaning of “friend”?

    Do you,Alfred,know the meaning of “Beloved?”

    The last thing I wanted to do was upset, or get on the wrong side of you.
    Do you remember the singer,Marty Robbins (El Paso)? He was a friend of mine, even recorded a couple of songs I wrote. He was my friend but I called him the “Chief.” He kinda liked it.
    You have sensitive ears. I have sensitive skin. I don’t want to upset you again, so I guess the best thing to do is say goodbye like we said hello, in a friendly kind of way.

    Happy trails. & no trials.

     
    • Adask

      October 2, 2012 at 1:26 AM

      I’m certainly not upset. My last reply to your comment about “boss” was primarily intended to be humor. But I’m serious in this regard. I’m not telling anyone what to do. I refuse to be anyone’s “boss”. I’ll share what I might do. But I won’t tell others what they must do.

       
  16. Anon4fun

    October 2, 2012 at 4:57 PM

    Also note that Dred Scott was about whether black people could be citizens at the federal level specifically. This is hardly surprising, since blacks already had citizenship and voting rights in 5 of the States way back when the Constitution was ratified, which incidentally means their elected representatives were among the Founders.

     
  17. don

    October 2, 2012 at 11:52 PM

    citizens at the “federal level”…… in 5 of the States ???

     
  18. Jerry Lee

    October 3, 2012 at 11:44 AM

    Though not mine but may be helpful:

    The Legacy Abandoned
    Abandonment of the greatest estate bequeathed to mankind in the history of the world.
    by Burness Speakmen
    The Legacy
    The constitution granted the government the power to administrate and carry on Corporate functions. Under the Common Law, inherent Rights cannot devolve to a “body politic” through a corporation. Rights only devolve to human beings (as a body politic) through and by way of a “Trust”. Under Constitutional law in order to determine the meaning of a written instrument a court must look to the title. In our case it is the Preamble. The Preamble clearly shows a Freehold/ feesimple absolute in it. (Pursuant to the Laws of Real Property that have been in existence since day one.) Freeholds/feesimples were instruments of Trust not corporate. Since it states “our posterity” it cannot be speaking of a corporate entity as posterity only can mean a human being by birth. The posterity or heirs cannot be defined as it would invalidate the meaning of a freehold/feesimple absolute. When the 14th Amendment was invoked in 1868 it was still valid under the laws of Real property. (whether or not it was legally ratified or not) it established a trust of a different nature. (no one can defeat it because the subject has never been brought up). It was still a Freehold but with the ability to be changed and lessened under the laws of Real Property. This is because it defines the heirs as those subject to the jurisdiction of the congress. Now you may say, how can this be. Go back to the fact that Rights cannot devolve to a body politic by way of corporation, but the freehold in the 14th Amendment can be lessened piece by piece because its workings are subject to the Jurisdiction of the congress. After time, it no longer is a Freehold but an estate of Tenancy. All of America has been reduced to this Tenancy and no one can understand what has happened to the Rights they were told they had. Since early on in the 1900s people were told they were receiving “Equality” but never told equal to what. The 14th Amendment Freehold was supposed to be “Equal” to the Preamble Freehold and so it was for approximately 30-40 years. People forgot the civil war, they forgot the 11 southern states that were denied their equal footing and thrown out of the legislature. The United states of America was overthrown in 1868 and a new form of government put in its place. No one ever noticed because they had forgotten that the founding fathers fought for Inherent Rights not taxation without representation.

    The government states that the Constitution is a grant of power and that is correct, but to perform corporate functions, which is the Office of Profit, everyone misses the Key words in the document like “office of Trust” along with that office of profit. No one seems to see it, as if it is invisible and has no meaning, but IT is the creator. They also miss the words about the jury trial and words of “common law”. No one invokes the common law because the laws established under the 14th amendment are not common law, but they cannot be in conflict with it, and they aren’t. People do not know who they are and where they came from, why they are here, and where their Rights come from. The Amendments are a restatement of rights but under the 14th amendment they are ONLY a codicil that changes the intentions of the founding fathers. Thus Civil Rights.

    To invoke the common law one must ask the administrators which office they represent (office of trust or office of profit), inform them they are trustees of the trust you are a beneficiary/legatee/heir of, tell them where the Trust resides, inform them that Rights do not devolve through an office of profit, that they would be in breach of trust if they continue to follow their proceedings as is, and that as an Heir you are invoking the Common Law of England as it stands in this country.

    Under Constitutional Law a court — ANY court, MUST look toward the Trust first and make determinations from that point, not statutory law.

    Sincerely
    Burness Speakmen

     
    • Donald

      October 3, 2012 at 1:37 PM

      To:Jerry Lee & about 2 more/others.

      I wish I knew how to put the following in all caps to emphasize it. It is a portion of what Jerry Lee posted.

      1.-Since early on in the 1900s people were told they were receiving “Equality” but never told equal to what. The 14th Amendment Freehold was supposed to be “Equal” to the Preamble Freehold and so it was for approximately 30-40 years. People forgot the civil war, they forgot the 11 southern states that were denied their equal footing and thrown out of the legislature. The United states of America was overthrown in 1868 and a new form of government put in its place. No one ever noticed because they had forgotten that the founding fathers fought for Inherent Rights not taxation without representation. (TRUE,TRUE,TRUE)

      2.-Per: Under Constitutional Law a court — ANY court, MUST look toward the Trust first and make determinations from that point, not statutory law.

      Sincerely
      Burness Speakmen

      3.- Obviously, Burness Speakmen HAS NEVER presented his stand/position in ANY Court. I wish he would. IF he ever does he is in for a RUDE awakening !!! WHY ? Because he is RIGHT !!!

       
  19. Donald

    October 3, 2012 at 12:55 PM

    Hi Jerry Lee, & a few others (very few)

    Re: Your post,October 3, 2012 at 11:32 AM,
    & re:Preamble Religious Intent,

    Your post is absolute Proof that the “1787 Constitution” should be declared annulity because it Flagrantly VIOLATES the “separation of church & state doctrine.” It IS Conspicuously bad, offensive, & reprehensible to the”separation of church & state doctrine,” especially when we come across Court cases like the following:

    “Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind.” Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States; and,

    “The Christian religion is the established religion by our form of government . . . .” Accord, Runkel v. Winemiller, et al. 4 H & McH; Wylly v. Collins, 9 Georgia Rep. P. 237; The People v. Ruggles, 8 Johnsons NY Common Law Rep. 290, pages 294, 295; Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Sergeant & Rawles Penn. Supreme Court Rep. 400; Bell v. The State, 1 Swan (Tenn.) 42, P. 44.

    “ It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it.” Joseph Story and the American Constitution, J. Mc- Clellan, page 139, Oklahoma University Press (1971), ( Letter of John Marshall to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833 ).

    Don’t the Courts,above,realize what they say IS Conspicuously bad, offensive,& reprehensible to the”separation of church & state doctrine?”

    Woe is me !!!

    If what I said,supra,is not understood like I want it to be, I’m in hot water.

     
    • Jerry Lee

      October 3, 2012 at 1:44 PM

      Don, Yes indeed seem the moral compass of ‘America’ is pointing straight to Hell.
      I made this video a year or so ago. Please view…

      Christian Nation

       
      • Donald

        October 3, 2012 at 2:52 PM

        Jerry Lee & 1 or maybe 2 more of like mind & heart,
        Re: Christian Video.

        HOW TRAGIC!! The GALL & AUDACITY of ANYONE to ASK “God” (YHWH) To BLESS America. The video sure has the proper “CLIMAX” e.g. “THE END” & “The End” is at the door.

        Now, Jerry Lee, let’s wait & see how many others of like mind & heart “respond” to the video. I dearly love to be wrong about some things. IF I am I will give notice of it. From what I see posted from others, by far, they want to show how smart they are & how much knowledge they have. I read EVERY post & respond to most of them. I receive pratically no response back compared to my responses & the responses I do get,for the most part,is someone wanting to show in his/her superior way, how wrong I am,etc.

        I don’t think I’m going to be on this site much longer, but I would like to stay in touch with you. My email is donaldbailey02@comcast.net.

        Scroll up to the FIRST comment on this thread (is this the correct term, thread) ?

         
    • Donald

      October 3, 2012 at 1:51 PM

      Thanks Jerry Lee, I’m going to watch it (video)NOW.

       
  20. Anon4fun

    October 3, 2012 at 4:35 PM

    Reply to Don:

    They addressed citizenship at the federal level only, since freed slaves already had it at the State level.

    Actually, it looks like all the court did was write an editorial, since the majority admitted they did not have jurisdiction in the case. Yes, if you read the text, they say flat out that they lack jurisdiction to rule by the very fact of Dred Scott being a non-citizen. A justice in the minority (Curtis) drew attention to this in his opinion and resigned six months later. So what the court issued was not an adjudication, but something else.

     
    • Donald

      October 3, 2012 at 6:12 PM

      Thanks, Anon4fun, & I sincerely mean this. I am going to re read(reed) & study “Dred Scott” again,

      after your message. Saying, thank you,seems shallow,but It’s the best I can do. I vaguely recall

      that a few “People of Color” were,”state citizens,” before “Dred Scott” but I have misplaced or lost

      all the “info” I had on it. I am real fuzzy on this issue. I have used “Dred Scott” in some of my

      battles,& now I am beginning to think that using Dred Scott only generated good hearty belly

      laughs. Well, at least I am good for a laugh.

       
  21. Donald

    October 3, 2012 at 7:29 PM

    Anon4fun, I am in the process of Reading Dred Scott again.

    The following is a “cut & paste” from Dred Scott. Are we together, in agreement on this point?

    In discussing this question, we must not confound the rights of citizenship which a State may confer within its own limits, and the rights of citizenship as a member of the Union. It does not by any means follow, because he has all the rights and privileges of a citizen of a State, that he must be a citizen of the United States.(< The United States, here, means the several states & not the United States as used in the 14th "war amendment").

    Do you agree, Anon4fun?

     
  22. Anon4fun

    October 3, 2012 at 9:37 PM

    Donald:

    The Supreme Court did say that in Dred Scott, but they also said they lacked jurisdiction in the case. Therefore, I am inclined to consider the court’s word on the matter to not be a ruling with force of law, but rather an editorial or political tract. Given this, we read the opinion of Benjamin Curtis in the minority:

    {Citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution can have been no other than citizens of the United States under the Confederation. By the Articles of Confederation, a Government was organized, the style whereof was “The United States of America.” This Government was in existence when the Constitution was framed and proposed for adoption, and was to be superseded by the new Government of the United States of America, organized under the Constitution. When, therefore, the Constitution speaks of citizenship of the United States existing at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, it must necessarily refer to citizenship under the Government which existed prior to and at the time of such adoption.

    Without going into any question concerning the powers of the Confederation to govern the territory of the United States out of the limits of the States, and consequently to sustain the relation of Government and citizen in respect to the inhabitants of such territory, it may safely be said that the citizens of the several States were citizens of the United States under the Confederation.

    [...]

    To determine whether any free persons, descended from Africans held in slavery, were citizens of the United States under the Confederation, and consequently at the time of the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, it is only necessary to know whether any such persons were citizens of either of the States under the Confederation at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.

    Of this there can be no doubt. At the time of the ratification of the Articles of Confederation, all free native-born inhabitants of the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, and North Carolina, though descended from African slaves, were not only citizens of those States, but such of them as had the other necessary qualifications possessed the franchise of electors, on equal terms with other citizens.}

     
    • Adask

      October 3, 2012 at 10:49 PM

      I agree with the judge’s analysis. However, if I understand your comment correctly, that analysis was part of the dissent and therefore did not count as the “law” presented in the majority opinion.

      But it’s interesting to note that if some of the descendants of former slaves were deemed to be “men” in some of the northern States, when the 14th Amendment created a new form of sub-standard “citizenship” for the newly-freed slaves, the first “victims” of that inferior citizenship may have northern Blacks who had previously been deemed men endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. It’s possible that the Blacks of the North may have been as eager to embrace 14th Amendment citizenship as the Black’s of the southern slave-states. If so, the Blacks of the North may have unwittingly surrendered their liberties.

      Whites may have followed into 14th Amendment citizenship more slowly.

       
    • Don

      October 5, 2012 at 12:52 AM

      Anon4fun,

      Please cut FROM the Scott v. Sanford & paste here on this thread, where as you say: “The

      Supreme Court did say…. in Dred Scott, they (Supreme Court) lacked jurisdiction.” Show me

      where the Supreme Court said that THEY, the Supreme Court lacked jurisdiction. All I see, as far

      as “lack of jurisdiction,” is the Supreme Court saying that the “lower court” did not have jurisdiction.

       
  23. Anon4fun

    October 3, 2012 at 11:55 PM

    Adask said: {However, if I understand your comment correctly, that analysis was part of the dissent and therefore did not count as the “law” presented in the majority opinion.}

    Yes, the dissenting opinion does not count as law. In this case however, it appears no one’s opinion counted as law, since the majority explicitly admitted, right there in the text, that the court lacked jurisdiction in the matter. As we know, judgments are void which lack jurisdiction. Though there could be another explanation, as of now I see no reasonable interpretation other than their so-called ruling voided itself in its very wording. Maybe this is why the majority felt at liberty to reach what the minority showed to be a clearly unfounded conclusion. Events intervened to make it a moot point, so we can only speculate how this would have played out in later cases. Benjamin Curtis, who resigned from the court soon afterward, thought their motivation was political. We see from history the effects it had.

     
    • Don

      October 4, 2012 at 6:13 AM

      Alfred,my “friend,”

      Justice tanney said what I “excerpted.” He was not one of the 2 dissenters. The Dred Scott case is still being used to “get across” certain points & issues. The 14th ungodly amendment only over- ruled a “portion” of Dred Scott. I think we are on a rabbit trail here anyway.

       
  24. Don

    October 4, 2012 at 6:01 AM

    Anon4fun,
    it appears we are on another rabbit trail. The Supreme Court HAD Jurisdiction to tell the lower court that they(Justices) DID NOT have jurisdiction. Below, is a 1973 Supreme Court case & I guarantee you,Dred Scott, has been used much later than the year of 1973,for different purposes.

    Sugarman v. Dougall 413 U.S. 634 (1973)

    MR. JUSTICE REHNQUIST
    It is unnecessary to venture into a detailed discussion of what Congress intended by the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The paramount reason was to amend the Constitution so as to overrule explicitly the Dred Scott decision. Scott v. Sandford, 19 How. 393 (1857).

     
  25. Don

    October 4, 2012 at 6:30 AM

    To: Anon4fun,Alfred, et.al.

    The following is sent only for the purpose of showing that the “Dred Scott” case is still being discussed, etc.

    Rethinking Dred Scott: New Context for an Old Case
    A Allen – Chi.-Kent L. Rev., 2007 – HeinOnline
    … CONFLICTING VISIONS OF CITIZENSHIP IN US HISTORY 212-71 (1997); GRABER, supra note
    14, at 47-57; Sanford Levinson, Slavery in … structured around male privilege suppressed her story);
    John S. Vishneski III, What the Court Decided in Dred Scott v. Sandford, 32 AM. …
    Cited by 10 Related articles BL Direct All 5 versions

     
  26. Anon4fun

    October 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM

    Rehnquist: “It is unnecessary to venture into a detailed discussion of what Congress intended by the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The paramount reason was to amend the Constitution so as to overrule explicitly the Dred Scott decision.”

    Well, that’s their story and they’re sticking with it. One can also imagine the paramount reason for the Dred Scott decision was to create a crisis that would serve as the pretext for expanding government power (in this case, the Fourteenth Amendment). Sound familiar? This would explain the bizarre way the Court handed a case in which they admitted lacking jurisdiction. In fact, due to their finding the plaintiff to lack standing, there was never a Dred Scott v. Sandford case before the Court in first place. Not that it should be surprising to find them helping to bring in the same United States Empire their employer would soon foist on the Republic.

     
    • Don

      October 4, 2012 at 9:55 AM

      Hello Anon4fun,

      Why would “others” become so upset over ANY Court saying the Court lacks jurisdiction? If a court lacks jurisdiction, it seems to me that anything the Court says doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. If anything doesn’t amount to a hill of beans, what’s there to be upset about? Then again, in “my”(?) own case, the top court said the lower court did not have jurisdiction to issue an injuction against me, the order was made without authority, and the order is invalid, but affirmed the citation for contempt, i.e. they said I contemptiously violated the invalid order. I kid you not !! So who knows what the hell to do. I know what I would like to do. Kill them? NO ! No way !! But, there is something I would like to do & I call it righteous indignation, maybe with a degree, mixed with “temporary insanity.”

       
    • Don

      October 5, 2012 at 3:44 PM

      Anon4fun.

      @One can also imagine the paramount reason for the Dred Scott decision was to create a crisis that would serve as the pretext for expanding government power (in this case, the Fourteenth Amendment). Sound familiar?

      Oh yes, it does “sound familiar.” Notice the last word in famiLIAR.Dred Scott WAS used as an excuse. But there is no real true excuse for it. Most pepole hate the truth anyway, especially that truth that doesn’t fit in with their way of “seeing things.” We need to see it the same way The Eternal Creator of Heaven & Earth SEES IT !!! This, for the most part can only be done via “divine revelation.” The Eternal will not reveal anything to anyone who is not pleasing him.

       
  27. Anon4fun

    October 4, 2012 at 10:50 AM

    I don’t know, Don. I, for one, have never been upset at a court for ruling the wrong way. Sure the system is corrupt, but the people who work day-to-day for it mostly think they are doing the right thing or a reasonable facsimile thereof. It’s not my place to judge them anyway.

     
    • Don

      October 5, 2012 at 12:27 AM

      Anon4fun,
      re: It’s not my place to judge them anyway.
      Are you knowledgable of the: Book of Judges in the Holy Bible? (apple question)
      May I ask what your purpose was in using the Dred Scott v.Sanford (<< correct spelling) case? (orange question)

       
  28. Donald

    October 4, 2012 at 2:47 PM

    Yahshua, turned over the stone money tables & “threw” out the money changers,Sampson had a little “fun” sitting the fields on fire, Moses made the eternity for an oppressor of his brethren, & I don’t think any of them were “judging.” I call them examples of righteous indignation.

     
  29. Jerry Lee

    October 4, 2012 at 10:44 PM

    I was going to remain silent on the subject that a few states had included Free People Of Color” ie Blacks, Negro as citizens while some were how elevated to the status as the white Citizen. My fore fathers were citizens of the colony of North Carolina before it had a state constitution fighting in the Revolution for the North Carolina Line. So I will focus on that state with reference to other Southern states on the citizenship of FPC mainly the Negro. I will not use African-American, as this is a ‘legal status’ (14th citizen) as noted in the styles manual of the United States. I will cut and paste and not interject my views at this time. You may see that this post deals with ‘Gun Control’ but keep this in mind, are Gun License laws applicable for Citizen/citizens today? A few may find some correlation for gun control that was mention in the Dred Scott decision.

    It is not surprising that the first North American English colonies, then the states of the new republic, remained in dread fear of armed blacks, for slave revolts against slave owners often degenerated into less selective forms of racial warfare. The perception that free blacks were sympathetic to the plight of their enslaved brothers, and the dangerous example that “a Negro could be free” also caused the slave states to pass laws designed to disarm all blacks, both slave and free. Unlike the gun control laws passed after the Civil War, these antebellum statutes were for blacks alone. In Maryland, these prohibitions went so far as to prohibit free blacks from owning dogs without a license, and authorizing any white to kill an unlicensed dog owned by a free black, for fear that blacks would use dogs as weapons. Mississippi went further, and prohibited any ownership of a dog by a black person

    Understandably, restrictions on slave possession of arms go back a very long way. While arms restrictions on free blacks predate it, these restrictions increased dramatically after Nat Turner’s Rebellion in 1831, a revolt that caused the South to become increasingly irrational in its fears. Virginia’s response to Turner’s Rebellion prohibited free blacks “to keep or carry any firelock of any kind, any military weapon, or any powder or lead…” The existing laws under which free blacks were occasionally licensed to possess or carry arms was also repealed, making arms possession completely illegal for free blacks.

    One example of the increasing fear of armed blacks is the 1834 change to the Tennessee Constitution, where Article XI, 26 of the 1796 Tennessee Constitution was revised from: “That the freemen of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence,” to: “That the free white men of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence.”
    The North Carolina Supreme Court also sought to repudiate the idea that free blacks were protected by the North Carolina Constitution’s Bill of Rights by pointing out that the Constitution excluded free blacks from voting, and therefore free blacks were not citizens. Article 17 guaranteed this right to the people — and try as hard as they might, it was difficult to argue that a “free person of color,” in the words of the Court, was not one of “the people.”
    The decision Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah (1848) was not, principally, a right to keep and bear arms case. In 1839, the city of Savannah, Georgia, in an admitted effort “to prevent the increase of free persons of color in our city,” had established a $100 per year tax on free blacks moving into Savannah from other parts of Georgia. Samuel Cooper and Hamilton Worsham, two “free persons of color,” were convicted of failing to pay the tax, and were jailed. On appeal, counsel for Cooper and Worsham argued that the ordinance establishing the tax was deficient in a number of technical areas; the assertion of most interest to us is, “In Georgia, free persons of color have constitutional rights…” Cooper and Worsham’s counsel argued that these rights included writ of habeas corpus, right to own real estate, to be “subject to taxation,” “they may sue and be sued,” and cited a number of precedents under Georgia law in defense of their position.
    Justice Warner delivered the Court’s opinion, most of which is irrelevant to the right to keep and bear arms, but one portion shows the fundamental relationship between citizenship, arms, and elections, and why gun control laws were an essential part of defining blacks as “non-citizens”: “Free persons of color have never been recognized here as citizens; they are not entitled to bear arms, vote for members of the legislature, or to hold any civil office.” The Georgia Supreme Court did agree that the ordinance jailing Cooper and Worsham for non-payment was illegal, and ordered their release, but the comments of the Court made it clear that their brave words in Nunn v. State (1846) about “the right of the people,” really only meant white people.
    While settled parts of the South were in great fear of armed blacks, on the frontier, the concerns about Indian attack often forced relaxation of these rules.

    The 1798 Kentucky Comprehensive Act allowed slaves and free blacks on frontier plantations “to keep and use guns, powder, shot, and weapons, offensive and defensive.” Unlike whites, however, a license was required for free blacks or slaves to carry weapons.

    The need for blacks to carry arms for self-defense included not only the problem of Indian attack, and the normal criminal attacks that anyone might worry about, but he additional hazard that free blacks were in danger of being kidnapped and sold into slavery. A number of states, including Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin, passed laws specifically to prohibit kidnapping of free blacks, out of concern that the federal Fugitive Slave Laws would be used as cover for re-enslavement.

    These are excerpts from…musicians4freedom.com. Again I have not study ‘citizenship’ of Free Blacks.

    South Carolina had a process called manumission, in which allowed a slave owner to free their slave.
    History books won’t mention that Mr. Ellison being freed served in both the SC legislature and the Senate, his son fought in the Confederacy.
    That an estimated 100,000 Negros fought for the Confederacy in the Union’s War of Aggression against their Country.

     
    • Don

      October 5, 2012 at 12:11 AM

      Hi Jerry Lee
      Good info. for the uninitiated, however at least 99 & 9/10 of the readers,etc. on this site are anything but uninitiated, & about everything.This is why you won’t get many responses,if any, other than mine.

       
  30. Jerry Lee

    October 4, 2012 at 11:04 PM

    Northern States Abolish Slavery

    All of the Northern states had different policies concerning slavery before the American Revolution. In some areas of the country where religious groups such as the Quakers played a prominent role in political life, there was strong opposition to having slaves.

    Rhode Island was the first state to abolish slavery in 1774, followed by:
    Vermont in 1777
    Pennsylvania in 1780
    Massachusetts in 1781
    New Hampshire in 1783
    Connecticut in 1784
    New York in 1799
    New Jersey in 1804

    These new states never allowed slavery within their borders:
    Maine
    Michigan
    Wisconsin
    Ohio
    Indiana
    Kansas
    Oregon
    California
    Illinois

     
    • Don

      October 5, 2012 at 12:19 AM

      Jerry Lee,
      There is really no difference,at least to me, between the word slave,& servant. We are all servants of something in one way or another. If I said we are all slaves, in one way or another, I have a feeling that remark would not be very well taken & would lead to arguments from others who would tell me that he/she is not a slave of/to anything.

       
      • Jerry Lee

        October 5, 2012 at 7:27 AM

        Don,
        I do believe that ‘employee’ and ‘employer’ have the same meaning in one of the law dictionary’s as slave/master cannot recall which one would have to look it up. Given the fact that the IRS can follow all US citizens worldwide to collect on the Corporate debt I would say that is a fair assessment.

         
  31. Don

    October 5, 2012 at 11:47 AM

    To:Jerry Lee,

    The Holy Scripture says: Choose you today,whom you will serve.

    “But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you

    will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond …….”

     
    • Jerry Lee

      October 5, 2012 at 12:29 PM

      To Don,
      I used a phrase “Chose your side this day God or mammon” in my you tube video… Homicide in America.wmv, type this in the search engine on you tube, video is about 15 minutes in length.
      Yes indeed we are in a spiritual battle.

       
      • Don

        October 5, 2012 at 4:16 PM

        Jerry Lee
        re:America.wmv.
        When was this “so true” video,first released ? How long ago?

         
      • Jerry Lee

        October 5, 2012 at 4:38 PM

        To Don,
        I made this video in August 2011 and uploaded it to you tube August 8th 2011. Hope you enjoyed it.

         
      • Don

        October 5, 2012 at 4:37 PM

        America.wmv,

        Do you remember: “Better Living Through Chemistry” ??

        The phrase “Better Living Through Chemistry” is a variant of a DuPont advertising slogan, “Better Things for Better Living…Through Chemistry.” DuPont adopted it in 1935 and it was their slogan until 1982 when the “Through Chemistry” part was dropped. Since 1999, their slogan has been “The miracles of science”.[1]

        We should be so grateful to DuPont, & I’m so sure that most “observers/monitors” agree with this.

        Remember: “In God we trust, ALL others, we monitor”?? I would like to take their “monitors and shove them up their rears SIDEWAYS.” But, alas, their rears are so humongous they, the monitors would fall right back out, regardless of which way they are shoved in.

         
      • Jerry Lee

        October 5, 2012 at 5:55 PM

        To Don,
        Your comment October 5, 2012 at 4:37PM
        Do you remember: Better Living Through Chemistry”??

        I do not recall the date but was it not this chemical giant’s fluoride gas fog that killed some villagers in India or Pakistan as they slept?

        Of course do not worry we here in this country add this poison power to our drinking water and processed foods.

        The same 95 % ingredient listed as ‘other’ on boxes of Rat poison today was in olden days listed as 95% Sodium Fluoride and 5% inert ingredient, with the skull and cross bones on the package.

        It doesn’t matter that warnings on the Bags of Sodium Fluoride imported from China used at water departments across the nation; DANGER POISON-TOXIC BY INGESTION, TARGET ORGANS KIDNEY, BONES, CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, GASTRULA INTESTINAL SYSTEM, TEETH.
        The warning is written in English but might as well be in Chinese.

        Is it any wonder that tooth paste has a warning to contact posion control if swallowed.

        No wonder the Kool-aid has that ‘pinko communy’ effect on the population at large.

         
      • Don

        October 5, 2012 at 7:38 PM

        To: Jerry Lee,

        You said: I made this video in August 2011 and uploaded it to you tube August 8th 2011. Hope you enjoyed it.

        No, Jerry Lee, dear one, I did not enjoy it. I do not enjoy anything that makes me sad (an understatement). I’m sure you understand what I’m saying. Yes,sometimes the truth does hurt,but,who enjoys being hurt except those who get pleasure from something painful. The video did not bring me any pleasure at all. Once again,it made me sad. I don’t think you “ENJOY” the video either.

         
  32. Jerry Lee

    October 5, 2012 at 12:37 PM

    Just when I thought I was finished; let me share this with you. Mr. Lincoln’s war to establish the corporate/fascist state is still in full force and effect. The catalyze was the unconstitutional Military Reconstruction Acts which was able to bring forth the corner stone of the Dictatorship that is in place today.
    Seem after the 14th amendment was ‘ratified’ at the point of the bayonet, the war debt that could not be questioned under section 4 of that amendment the first New Deal was put into place before Wilson/FDR added their spin to the fall of the Republic.

    Lincoln’s war debt will never be paid in full, as it is an impossibility, you can take that to the ‘BANK’. Seem old Ulysses pledged the American people as colatter for the United States war debt, couple that with the short lived income tax was this a ‘Beta Test’ of things to come?

    A few things to ponder.

    The Act to Strengthen Public Credit, signed into law by Ulysses Grant on March 18, 1869, pledged every American citizen as collateral for the repayment of all government obligations, including the national debt. Your federal government did not own anything, the states and the people owned all the wealth. In order to get the central banks to print money, the banks wanted collateral. You are that collateral. A classic book on this topic is The Coming Battle by Martin W. Walbert, published in 1899.

    Act To Strengthen The Public Credit– March 18, 1869

    Be it enacted . . . That in order to remove any doubt as to the purpose of the government to discharge all just obligations to the public creditors, and to settle conflicting questions and interpretations of the laws by virtue of which such obligations have been contracted, it is hereby provided and declared that the faith of the United States is solemnly pledged to the payment in coin or its equivalent of all the obligations of the United States not bearing interest, known as United States notes, and of all the interest-bearing obligations of the United States, except in cases where the law authorizing the issue of any such obligation has expressly provided that the same may be paid in lawful money or other currency than gold and silver. But none of said interest bearing obligations not already due shall be redeemed or paid before maturity unless at such time United States notes shall be convertible into coin at the option of the holder, or unless at such time bonds of the United States bearing a lower rate of interest than the bonds to be redeemed can be sold at par in coin. And the United States also solemnly pledges its faith to make provision at the earliest practicable period for the redemption of the United States notes in coin.

    14 CJS section 4 quotes State v. Manuel 20 NC 122: “… the term `citizen’ in the United States, is analogous to the term `subject’ in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government.”

    (Read that again. Pay attention. CITIZENS IN THE U.S. ARE SUBJECTS EVER SINCE THE CHANGE IN GOVERNMENT. What part don’t you understand?)
    CAN YOU SAY MILITARY RECONSTRUCTION ACTS?

    Colgate v. Harvey then concluded that the right to trial by jury and the right to bear arms are not guaranteed to 14th Amendment citizens.

    United States v. 24 Federal Cases 829,830 (1873): “The rights of Citizens of the States, as such, are not under consideration in the fourteenth amendment. They stand as they did before the adoption of the fourteenth amendment and are fully guaranteed by other provisions.”

    A federal judge in Puerto Rico – a territory sensitive to the rights and privileges of its residents’ U.S. citizenship — said it best: “The only absolute and unqualified right of citizenship is to residence within the territorial boundaries of the United States; a citizen cannot be either deported or denied reentry.” U.S. v. Valentine, 288 F. Supp. 957, 980 (D.P.R. 1968).

    This would imply also to US citizens on the main land now wouldn’t it?, that 14th amendment creature; person/subject.

    Don’t Pay Any Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain!!!!

     
  33. Don

    October 5, 2012 at 1:42 PM

    Jerry Lee

    re: Just when I thought I was finished; let me share this with you.

    It appears I am the only one you are sharing it with.Most of the other “observers” on this site know we are far behind them in their superior knowledge & understanding.

    re: Lincoln’s war debt will never be paid in full….
    Debt notes, aka ferns,will never “pay a penny” towards anything, you CAN take that to the BANK.

    re: You are that collateral.
    Anon4fun is not a part of that collateral. He has “unalienable rights.” Most other “observers” believe they do too.

    re:….United States notes…
    Notes (OF ANY KIND ) are not dollars.

    re:14 CJS section 4 quotes State v. Manuel 20 NC 122: “… the term `citizen’ in the United States..

    Quotes are around “citizen” & this is a common noun, as written. Therefore, State v.Manuel is correct.

    re:United States v. 24 Federal Cases 829,830 (1873): “The rights of Citizens of the States, as such, are not under consideration in the fourteenth amendment. They stand as they did before the adoption of the fourteenth amendment and are fully guaranteed by other provisions.”

    The above case is one of many I rely on. Notice how “Citizens” is written? It is a proper noun.

    BUT all said & done, it don’t make no diffurnce no how. The “Olivet prophecy IS the ONLY answer & our only HOPE,& you CAN take that to the BANK !!!

     
  34. Don

    October 17, 2012 at 12:32 PM

    Jerry Lee
    @ Your message October 17, 2012 at 10:25 AM
    I just sent you an e-mail about your comment but forgot to add, your comment in, Adjournment Sine Die. I am still at a loss to understand why you sent your comment to me. I cannot find anything I posted that would persuade you, Jerry Lee, to send your above dated message to me. There have been several other things happening on this website, messages from others that made it obvious something is wrong. Only one was corrected & then I am told, Hey Don, THANKS for taking the HIT for me. When some things are never corrected & I do everything I can to have them corrected & they NEVER are,not even a comment one way or the other,it makes me wonder.

     
    • Jerry Lee

      October 17, 2012 at 3:02 PM

      Don,
      The comment was just a follow through to your response to Anon4fun comment of
      October 1, 2012 at 9:52 PM. ( listed below) Comments are relative to my October 1, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Sine Die Part 3 but like you stated not to many take my comments and reply directly to me except you my friend? It was your comment that altered me so I did the return post to you passing on pertinent information I think you might find informative. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Maybe it should have been a stand alone comment, Jerry Lee.

      Anon4fun
      October 1, 2012 at 9:52 PM
      Though the official reason for the 14th Amendment was philanthropy for the freed slaves, the real reason was to create a status of servitude under the United States Empire then in formation. Proof of the exaggeration of the problem the 14th Amendment’s advocates were pretending to solve is the simple fact that many blacks were already citizens in certain Free States, even before the Civil War. If citizenship for blacks was possible under the existing paradigm, then the drastic political reform of creating a whole new class of citizenship was unnecessary for that purpose.

      Don
      October 17, 2012 at 12:05 AM
      Anon4fun October 1, 2012 at 9:52 PM
      Right on !!! Bullseye !!!

       
  35. Don

    October 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM

    Re: Your comment: “I also wonder how a gang of Men seeking freedom………”

    This “GANG” hated themselves,their own children,their grandchildren, & they, the GANG, wanted to destroy themselves as well as their children,grandchildren, & on.They,the GANG, thought the “Constitution” they drafted with all of its obvious evil intent would do that,i.e. destroy themselves & their offspring. They were all masochists,everyone of them. It is sad for me to say this but then I am a sad ist. so, I have no choice. I is what I is.

     
    • Don

      October 19, 2012 at 12:07 AM

      The above message is for PAYTRIOTONE

       
      • PatriotOne

        October 21, 2012 at 12:10 PM

        Reply to Don;
        If the founders were attempting to declare Men to be Their own King, only surrendering Their Kingdom by trespassing upon another Man, all things being equal, and I do believe that is what the founders were attempting….
        How is it that all Men are treated as SLAVES by a government of Men that have sworn to defend the freedoms belonging to all other Men?
        How is it that a migrating Man MUST beg an ‘American’ for permission to live free in America like the ‘American’ lives free in America?

        Every time a Man is forced into IRS court, that Man is being forced to purchase permission to sustain his life. This to me is a-Ok because those ‘Americans’ that do not defend the Man from the IRS are also forcing the migrating Man to beg and purchase permission to live free in America just like the ‘Americans’ are forced by the IRS to purchase permission to live free.

        What the ‘Americans’ have done to the immigrant America has done to the ‘Americans’.

        whomever forces another Man to ask for permission has in fact enslaved that other Man.

         
  36. PatriotOne

    October 21, 2012 at 9:06 AM

    “”"I also wonder how a gang of Men seeking freedom could declare that words on paper be enforced perpetually upon all other Men, espically when those same words do not force any Man to serve. Nowhere do those words say “any Man refusung to serve as President shall be shot”, neither do those words appoint any Man to do the shooting.

    I also wonder how, where the Constitution compels no Man to serve, the Men serving seem to be able to compel all Men to do various things under threat of arrest and at the barrel of a gun?”"”

    Quoting my earlier post above…

    The 14th Amendment does not apply to Men or Women generally. The 14th Amendment does apply to Congress-Men or Congress-Women or government employees.

    If I were forced into court I would declare ‘where is Corpus Delecti? and ‘what FACTS does the PROSECUTOR rely upon that prove the CODE or REGULATION or CONSTITUTION apply to Me a Man? and ‘the PROSECUTOR has stated that I committed the offense within the STATE and that he cannot prosecute Me if I committed the offense outside the STATE,,, so I ask FACTUALLY Mr. PROSECUTOR what is the STATE?

    if Mr. PROSECUTOR says “the STATE is the ground” I would ask ‘how often does Mr. PROSECUTOR talk to the ground?’.

    The TRUTH is, the Constitution only applies to those serving within government, the Constitution does NOT apply to Men or Women generally. Also, all “LAWS” passed by government only apply to those serving within government, US laws do not apply in Russia-China-France-Man-Woman.

    The only reason government is able to convince any Man or Woman that the LAW applies to them is because the government points a gun at Man or Woman.

    If the PROSECUTOR is compelled to produce and bona fi FACTS that I am within the STATE and the LAW applies to Me, any court (if honest) would dismiss for want of a Plaintiff or controversy or case.

    I challenge any Man or Woman to prove with FACTS supported by EVIDENCE that the Constitution applies to Me, without pointing a gun at Me to convince Me.

    I can be found at the PUB swirling a brewski with Lysander Spooner…

     
    • Don

      October 22, 2012 at 12:57 AM

      “I shall have occasion incidentally to evince, how true it is, that States and Governments were made for man; and, at the same time, how true it is, that his creatures and servants have first deceived, next vilified, and, at last oppressed their master and maker. I have already remarked, that in the practice, and even in the Science of politics, there has been frequently a strong current against the natural order of things; and an inconsiderate or an interested disposition to sacrifice the end to the means. This remark deserves a more particular illustration. Even in almost every nation, which has been denominated free, the State has assumed a supercilious preeminence above the people, who have formed it: Hence the haughty notions of State independence, State Sovereignty and State Supremacy. In despotic Governments, the Government has usurped, in a similar manner, both upon the State and the people: Hence all arbitrary doctrines and pretensions concerning the Supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable, power of Government. In each, man is degraded from the prime rank, which he ought to hold in human affairs: In the latter, the State as well as the man is degraded. Of both degradations, striking instances occur in history, in politics, and in common life. (Wilson, J. in Chisholm v. Georgia (1793),

      ”I have posted this which is written above numerous times to no avail. When people are only concerned about their own posts & only responses to their own posts & nothing else they only want to show how intelligent they are & could care less about what anybody else knows or “sees.”
      If you give a precious gift to your children & someone steals it, why do you want to blame the giver instead of the thief? You Patriotone had the gift of “KING” given to you but it was stolen & I say it was stolen by the international bankers. So if you really want something to CHEW on, CHEW ON THAT !!

       
  37. Don

    November 14, 2012 at 3:30 PM

    To: PatriotOne, my favorite commentator,

    @ “I make the above statements because the Bill of Rights are referred to as Amendments but they do not change any provision of the Constitution.”

    Are “referred” to as “amendments.” They are truly “Articles IN ADDITION to… & they, Bill of Rights, did not “amend” anything. I know you already know this, I only insert this for the “benefit” of those who may not know that The Bill of Rights are Articles in Addition, & not “amendments.” No matter, Guhmunt is BS.

     

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