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Merry Christmas!

24 Dec

Yes, yes, I know–Christmas has been paganized and commercialized and December 25th is probably not even the actual date of the Christ’s birth.  Instead, the Christ was probably born sometime in the Spring or Fall rather than Winter.  In fact, so far as I know, no living man truly knows the Christ’s actual date of birth.

A lot of people reject Christmas because they know that December 25th is not the Christ’s true birthday.  I respect their opinion

Nevertheless, if the Christ was born, then just because we don’t know his true date of birth, that doesn’t mean that we can’t still celebrate his birth–even if our celebration is on the wrong day.  In the end, we don’t celebrate the exact date of the Christ’s birth so much as the birth itself.   If some of us refuse to celebrate on the “wrong” date, do we ever celebrate that birth at all?  Shall we cease all celebration of the birth simply because we don’t know the exact date?

Here’s a video of people celebrating the birth of Christ.  Even if they’re celebrating on the wrong day and perhaps making other errors,  they’re still celebrating the Christ’s birth.  I can’t see how that celebration would displease the Christ.

 
117 Comments

Posted by on December 24, 2012 in Bible, Video

 

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117 responses to “Merry Christmas!

  1. Jesse

    December 25, 2012 at 12:02 AM

    Merry Christmas :D

     
  2. Carl: Boltz

    December 25, 2012 at 1:03 AM

    Thank you. May everyone understand and receive the reason for the season.

     
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 2:56 PM

      To: Carl: Boltz,
      Re: Your post of > “Thank you. May everyone understand and receive the reason for the season.”

      THANK YOU, Carl. I AGREE !!! May everyone UNDERSTAND and receive the TRUE REASON for the season. Could not say it better myself. Thanks again.

       
  3. Valerio

    December 25, 2012 at 1:25 AM

    Amen! Merrry Christmas..

     
  4. Huey Campbell

    December 25, 2012 at 3:15 AM

    For we have not such an high priest which can not be touched with our infirmities……….
    Did baby “Jesus” pee in his diaper?…………….Ahhh yes …..thank you God for becoming flesh and dwelling among us……. Merry Christmas brothers!

     
    • Flatwood

      December 25, 2012 at 11:15 AM

      Huey,
      Re:…..thank you God for becoming flesh and dwelling among us.

      I agree with this much.

       
  5. Flatwood

    December 25, 2012 at 7:33 AM

    Worshiping “Jesus” in a shopping mall with 40% off signs all around, Santa, People pushing shopping carts loaded with merchandise from the merchants of the earth,& praising the lord in song, solemn mockery.
    Every year, twice a year, the “Christ” is a new born baby (Christmas) or hanging on a cross,(Easter) & in both situations, helpless.
    Children are taught untruths in the name of & for the glory of Christ ?? In turn, they teach their children untruths. & still, we ask “God to bless America.” Solemn mockery.
    Instead of being a helpless baby, peeing in his diapers, or a dead being on a cross, people should read how Revelation,Chapter 1,verses 12 through 16, describes him & “see” him that way’
    Also,Revelation, 2: 18
    How is it that they worship me in vain? This question should show that it’s possible to WORSHIP “Jesus” in VAIN. The answer tells HOW. By obeying the doctrines of men,e.g. Christmas, Easter, Halloween,etc.
    See, Mark 7:7; Matthew 15:9

     
    • Flatwood

      December 25, 2012 at 7:48 AM

      P.S
      Christmas IS the most important holiday (not, Holy Day) to the so called “Jewish” & other merchants of the earth. Everytime the cash register rings, they sing with JOY, Oh what a FRIEND we have in Jesus !!!

       
    • Adask

      December 25, 2012 at 2:15 PM

      If I understand correctly, the Bible declares that God and/or the Christ is present whenever two or more more are gathered in his name. So far as I know, the Bible makes no exception for shopping centers covered with “40% Off!” signs. As I understand it, even in the midst of such shopping centers, if two or more are gathered in His name, God is present.

      I look at those people singing Christmas songs in the shopping center and I do not see pagan merchants. I see “two or more gathered in His name”. So I posted the video.

      If the Good Lord is going to preach, where should he preach? To the choir? Or to the sinners? If God or the Christ wish to preach to sinners, what better place to find them than in a shopping mall?

       
      • Flatwood

        December 25, 2012 at 4:19 PM

        Posting the video was a good idea,I think, in getting a point across. It’s just that our understanding of what is going on,etc., is different. Why do people observe/remember/honor his “alleged” birth-day when not one scripture says to do this? How,in your opinion can “Jesus” be “worshipped” in vain as the scriptures plainly say can be done? I think it’s safe to say that not one who honors his birthday,honors & remembers his death as the scriptures say TO DO. Some call it “The Last Supper” but it is really “Passover.” The scriptures DO say to honor & remember that event. The way people seem to understand things, I sometimes wish the scriptures said, Commit murder, adultery, lust after ALL your neighbors possessions, YES even his wife. Remember the FIRST day of the week as the sabbath NOT the seventh. The way most people understand the Holy Bible, the opposite would take place of what is “commanded,” e.g. there would be no murders,no wars,& so on. WONDERFUL.

         
      • Flatwood

        December 25, 2012 at 9:48 PM

        Re: “in his name.”

        Understanding what “in his name” means is of extreme importance. Yeshua also said, “anything” you/we ask “in his name” WILL BE granted/given. If anyone asks “God the Father, for the world to be destroyed & everything in it NOW, & says, Father I ask for this to be done NOW & I ask this in the name of Yeshua, Is that really asking for something “in the name” of Yeshua. It’s understanding what “in the name” truly means.

         
      • Flatwood

        December 25, 2012 at 10:40 PM

        Well, EASTER is next. A catholic Pope put Christ into that also just like he put Christ into saturnalia.
        Some people in the catholic church at the time protested & left that church. They are still called protestants to this day. Prod-ess-tunts. They consist of the so called protestant christian denomi-nations. BUT Easter is for the children too, isn’t it? Colorful Easter Baskets & bunny rabbits that lay eggs. Easter egg hunts for the children. Well, may I ask you this, What do egg laying rabbits & boiled Easter eggs have to do with the crucifixion of Christ ? Also, how do you get 3 days AND 3 nights in the grave,from Friday evening until Sunday morning when it is taught & believed that Sunday morning was when Christ arose? I guess a magician can do it but no math guru can. Putting Christ into something that really honors other “gods” is an abomination. But it is presented in such a way that it seems right. It seems that unless “God” is “calling” anyone to understand, he/she will not understand. BUT this is merciful on his,”God’s” part also because he will not hold anyone accountable for that which he/she does not understand. But everyone will understand when Christ returns. So, for those who do not believe as I do, be grateful that you do not understand. However,if you want to STAY ignorant, willingly, & don’t want to be confused with the facts, you are on dangerous ground.

         
  6. James Michael

    December 25, 2012 at 8:20 AM

    Merry Christmas all… and in our family it is about family love and being together. Sorry if you don’t experience it that way. Change of perception may help.

     
    • Flatwood

      December 25, 2012 at 10:48 AM

      Re: Merry Christmas all… and in our family it is about family love and being together.

      This is the sad aspect of it. This is how Satan keeps it perpetually going. But, there is a WAY that seems right yet leads to destruction. The Feast of Tabernacles is Yahweh’s time. He, has his “Holy days” & Satan has his “Holidays.” Satan cannot persuade us to do anything that we KNOW is wrong. He knows full well that people love colors,heart touching music, etc. & uses this to his advantage. If you think telling your child that IF she/he is a good little boy/girl, Santa Claus will come down from the North Pole with all his reindeer & leave presents, & tell them all about the tooth fairy, etc., is ok, then those lies will be perpetuated. Why do you want to lie to your children? How can anything that contains lies be good? It’s about family love & being together?? Oh, ok. I know it SEEMS right. I remember crying like a baby when I discovered Santa was not, what I was told he was. I loved him because he had been so good to me. It was as though he died & I had lost the only friend I thought I had. One of the saddest things in my life. I guess most children don’t experience this & grow up still believing in “ol Saint “Nick.” I have NEVER heard ANYONE say at “Christmas time,” what did you GIVE,but I hear a lot of, What did you GET !!

       
      • Demostenes Rivera Jr.

        December 29, 2012 at 2:39 PM

        About your question; how do you get 3 days AND 3 nights in the grave,from Friday evening until Sunday morning when it is taught & believed that Sunday morning was when Christ arose? Well very simple, you just look at it in context that at that time the day start at sunrise to sunset, he died on the 9th hour which is 3PM on that day, second day saturday, arose on Sunday at sunrise the third day. I don’t konw were you get 3 nights. The Bible only says on the third day.

         
      • Demóstenes Rivera Jr.

        January 6, 2013 at 9:46 AM

        Christmas Day 25th of December

        In the year AD 385 Saint John Chrysostom commemorated the feast of this solemn day, the divine act of God himself becoming man like ourselves. This divine act, not of men but God himself was always remembered by the Blessed Virgin Mary, for she kept those things dearly to her, in her immaculate heart, that she could not forget, and so, by divine inspiration she kept this date holy. This feast is a Holy celebration of joy for man. So Saint John Chrysostom’s homily on this date mention that this feast was celebrated because the handed down tradition that christians had kept and faithfully celebrated this feast with fervent devotion from that very date of his nativity. Who can forget that very moment when even the shepherds were told about the nativity, the Christ was born to them, and the visit of the Magi visit and worshiping him?And the Saint Chrysostom urge any one at the gathering feast if wanted any more evidence that they should go to the archives of Rome to see the proclamation decree from Caesar Augustus that at that time was preserved. Another way that Saint John Chrysostom in his homily showed the gathering flock why was celebrated on this date and is all hidden in the Holy Bible itself. The Saint mention the feast that the jews celebrates (today is called Yom Kippur) when the high priest once a year enter into the Holy of Holy in the temple in Jerusalem. This precept was given by God to be done on the seventh month (on the jewish calendar). The jewish people celebrate this feast at the end of September and beginning of October. Yom Kippur begins at sundown of the previous day in the Gregorian calendar. This year was celebrate on Wednesday 26 of September AD 2012. So as Zechariah exercising the office of priesthood before God, the angel of God appeared to him standing at the right of the altar of incense and said “your wife Elizabeth shall bear a son to you. And you shall call his name John.” Now when the angel Gabriel appeared to the Blessed Virgin and had announced the good news to her, said, “your cousin Elizabeth has herself also conceived a son, in her old age. And this is the sixth month for her who is called barren.” So by this we can determine the date of the Annunciation of March 25th by adding six month after September 25th, and 9 month after the annunciation, Christ is born on December 25th. Merry Christmas.

         
      • Michael

        January 9, 2013 at 12:01 PM

        Demostenes Rivera Jr,

        “About your question; how do you get 3 days AND 3 nights in the grave,from Friday evening until Sunday morning when it is taught & believed that Sunday morning was when Christ arose? Well very simple, you just look at it in context that at that time the day start at sunrise to sunset, he died on the 9th hour which is 3PM on that day, second day saturday, arose on Sunday at sunrise the third day. I don’t konw were you get 3 nights. The Bible only says on the third day.”

        Matthew 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

        I can see you rely on others to tell you what scripture states without looking it up for yourself. I won’t even attempt to address all of your erroneous assumptions in you other post. I will just suggest you do some study to see if what you have been told is truth or fiction.

         
      • Demostenes Rivera Jr.

        January 9, 2013 at 5:23 PM

        Hi Michael thanks for your response to my comment.

        The Apostle Saint Matthew testifies exactly what the scribes and the Pharisees understood what Christ had said, for He gave them a hint, for He do not give what is Holy to dogs (Mt 7:6), for He said “An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign. But a sign will not be given to it” (Mt 12:39), and so gave them the Prophet Jonah’s sign (Mt 12:40). He said not indeed openly that He should rise again, since they would have even laughed Him to scorn, but He intimated it in such manner, that they might believe Him to have foreknown it. Now Saint John tells us that when Jesus was in the temple and overturned the tables, the Jews ask him to show them a sign and He said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Yet he was speaking about the Temple of his body (Jo 2:18). Now Saint Matthew gives an account of Jesus before Caiaphas with false witnesses and testimony saying “This man said: ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God, and, after three days, to rebuild it.” (Mt 26:61) (Mk 14:58). Jesus never said He will destroy the Temple, but the Jews did by killing him. At the crucifixion they blasphemed Him with the same imputation saying “Ah, so you would destroy the temple of God and in three days rebuild it! (Mt 27:40) (Mk 15:29) Now the leaders of the priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate together, saying: “Lord, we have remembered that this seducer said, while he was still alive, “After three days, I will rise again” (Mt 27:62). The only time in the Holy Scripture you have Jesus Christ talking about His resurrection is in Saint Mark testimony of Peter, after confessing Jesus being the Christ and Jesus acknowledgement not to tell anyone. Jesus declare to His disciples about his sufferings in the hands of the elders, and by the high priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again (Mk 8:31). Jesus only told his disciples explicitly three days, never He says three nights to His apostles, and He gave only the sign of the Prophet Jonah to His opponents. Now when they went before Pilate to ask for security at the tomb, they knew the facts, not because Jesus had told them, but my reason tells me that they knew thru Judas, the traitor. Another way to know that is three days is by divine tradition and when I say tradition I’m talking about the tradition that God himself had instituted. Do you really believe that after hanging around Jesus for at least three years, witnessing His super natural power, watching Him died on the cross and latter being raised from the dead and talking to His disciples that they could not remember how long ago He died? The fact that He died was by divine will, the fact that He raised, was by divine will, the fact that His Apostles keep dearly this event in their heart is evident, not by human impulse, but by divine will and, by the love of God that man of good will has kept this divine tradition Holy, and the test of time has demonstrated. Victory over death. Who can forget this event? Only the wicked won’t keep divine tradition, instituted by God Himself.

         
      • Michael

        January 9, 2013 at 8:11 PM

        I am sorry you stick to Catholic dogma instead of what Yeshua actually stated in scripture. It is my prayer Yeshua will one day show you the truth. :-)

         
      • d

        January 10, 2013 at 8:52 PM

        Michael, if you invite some one to your house, the person that you invite must wait for you, for you are the way to get in, you possess the way, you are the authority to allow him to come in, you have the key, the way. The Son of God gave to Saint Peter the Keys of the Kingdom of heaven (Mt 16:19) and upon Saint Peter He build His Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (Mt16:18) and this Church, His House by Divine will has no end (Baruch 3:24), that is why is called Catholic, The Church of the living God, the pillar and the foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15). That is why the Church teaches, because it possesses the truth, for Christ is its head, its spouse and never will abandon her, and He will be with her till the end of time, for He said “I am with you always, even to the consummation of the age” (Mt 28:20). †Amen†

         
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 4:20 AM

      James Michael
      Re: ….and in our family it is about family love….

      “Everyday” should be this way & IF it was, there would be nothing “special” about “one particular day” If it is ONLY about what you say it is about.

       
  7. Michael

    December 25, 2012 at 8:49 AM

    I know I am going to ruffle some feathers, but the reason for the season has nothing to do with Yeshua. It has everything to do with the traditions of men. It is pagan ritual, plain and simple. Flatwood has it correct. And if you want to know where the “Christmas” tree comes from just read Jeremiah 10 sometime.

    Oh, and Al, all you have to do is read Leviticus 23 and learn about Tabernacles. That is when Yeshua was born. Most so-called Christians haven’t the foggiest idea what the Word of YHWH has to say, and actually believe there is a “Christmas” story in it. LOL!!!

     
    • Flatwood

      December 25, 2012 at 11:08 AM

      Hello again Michael,
      Well, it’s obvious, reading other comments, why “we” have 2 ears, so what is said can go in 1 & out the other, if it doesn’t fit the mould, that is. Michael, please let me take this once in a year time opportunity to wish…….. aw forget it. To ALL the rest, I wish you the best of everything. I believe Michael will say the same thing.

       
    • Adask

      December 25, 2012 at 2:05 PM

      My point is that people like myself who don’t know the exact date of the Christ’s birth may still be entitled to celebrate that birth–even if that celebration is on the wrong day. The use of the Christmas tree may be originally pagan. December 25th may have been a pagan holiday long before it was deemed to be Christmas. Even so, people who use Christmas trees on December 25th are not automatically celebrating something Satanic. If, in their hearts, they are “innocently” trying to celebrate the Christ’s birth, I don’t see that as a mortal sin. They may be behaving like children who don’t remember what day it is, but they’re still behaving in a way that is not knowingly pagan or Satanic.

      More, let’s suppose that the Christmas tree and December 25th were originally pagan (even Satanic rituals). Let’s suppose that a natural conflict exists when the celebration of Christ’s birth takes place on a pagan holiday. It’s not absolutely clear which “force” (Christianity or paganism) is being challenged and overcome by the other. If we celebrate the Christ’s birth on a pagan holiday that existed long before the Christ was born, are we subjecting Christianity to paganism? Or are we subjecting paganism to Christianity? The results aren’t yet final, but from an historical perspective, have the pagans captured the Christian holiday, or have the Christians captured the pagan holiday? Yes, we still use a pagan Christmas tree, but on the other hand billions of people knowingly and intentionally celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th each year. How many people knowingly and intentionally celebrate a pagan holiday on December 25th? A few million? Less?

      If the numbers of celebrants alone could be an accurate indicator, it appears to me that Christianity has kicked the pagan’s butts. Yes, there’s a confusion and we all need to look deeper into the Bible to determine what is right and what is intolerable. If a man were condemned to Hell, would it still be wrong for him to pray to God while in Hell? It might be too late to make any difference, but would it be wrong?

      In the same sense, it may not be ideal, but is it wrong to celebrate Christ’s birth on a day that was formerly a pagan holiday?

       
      • Flatwood

        December 25, 2012 at 5:36 PM

        Re: > Yes, we still use a pagan Christmas tree, but on the other hand billions of people knowingly and intentionally celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th each year.

        Oh my !! THAT MANY, BILLIONS ! Oh my, well,if that many do, then it must be the right thing to do. If you had said multiple millions,that would not have persuaded me at all. BUT, since it’s Billions, I’m going to have to reconsider my position, because the majority is usually right. This is good logical, rational thinking for those who vote too !! Vote for the one that you think has the best chance of winning. Who wants to be on the losing side when the majority is always right.

        You & I have to admit that this worship has been going on all of our lives & before, because this is what we were taught. Our parents taught us, their parents taught them, & so on. Ain’t I a great Scrooge? As far as it being a mortal sin, I don’t think so but then again, I cannot read hearts. But
        I’m positive that some of those worshippers are in better standing with “The Eternal” than I am. It’s not the knowers that matter, but the doers. I am not a very good “doer.” I just know some things that sometimes,I wish I did not know. He remembers that we are but dust. I cannot help but believe that if people worship The Eternal” the best they know how, they will be given credit for it. This is part of the “sin offering” purpose. BUt it is not for those who knowingly & willingly commit sin, AFTER a knowledge of the truth is revealed, as I think I have,in the past. Well NO, it’s not that I think I have, I KNOW I HAVE. So, at best, I am between a rock & a hard place, AT BEST. I only wanted to share with others what I am aware of that is true, re: “man made holidays.”

        Yes, I believe a shopping mall is a great place to go the “preach truth” but even more so ALL of the COURTHOUSES, out in front of course, on the lawn. However, I think a license is required to do that, or be arrested for preaching without a license & who knows what else, maybe, criminal trespass, obstructing justice in progress,etc.

        There is a way that seems right, but the end result is destruction

         
      • Flatwood

        December 26, 2012 at 1:15 AM

        Alfred,
        Re > 1.-My point is that people like myself who don’t know the exact date of the Christ’s birth…

        The exact date or ANY DATE doesn’t matter one iota. It is NOT the date that is the major Federal, excuse me, Christmas question. One relevant question is: Where does the scripture say ANYWHERE to remember his birthday & observe Christmas ? The answer is, NOWHERE !!

        2.- More, let’s suppose that the Christmas tree and December 25th were originally pagan (even Satanic rituals).

        No supposing about it, it’s both. Putting Christ into it does not change that. It is an abomination to put Christ into something Satanic & pagan. It is still Satanic & pagan with a name change. Remember a rose by any other name is STILL a rose??? This one’s a picadilly. Sour pickledilly.

        3.- How many people knowingly and intentionally celebrate a pagan holiday on December 25th? A few million? Less?

        None,I hope.

        4.-Yes, there’s a confusion and we all need to look deeper into the Bible to determine what is right and what is intolerable.

        What is right & what is wrong is a better thing to determine

        5.-If a man were condemned to Hell, would it still be wrong for him to pray to God while in Hell?

        If you mean the lake of fire & brimstone where the Bible says some WILL BE cast into, it will be to late to pray. Besides,those who ARE thrown into HELL are not going to be leaping from brick to brick for eternity crying out in agony. They will be instantly consumed. YHWH is not a sadistic monster. If someone lives a thousand years, & during that 1,000 years rebels knowingly & deliberately, is it merciful to torture him for 10 million years? & that would be more like just a second when you consider that eternity never ends. It’s eternal punishMENT. NOT, punish-ING. He is deceased for eternity. He no longer exists. & I’ll tell you this, IF there is no resurrection(s), those who have died & will die,have ceased to exist, for eternity. IF we go to heaven or hell when we die, what is the purpose or need of,the promised resurrection(s)? To be judged by the Supreme Judge to see if any mistakes were made as to whether we went to the right place or not ?

        6.-It might be too late to make any difference, but would it be wrong?

        I think it is to you, whatever you think it is.

        In the same sense, it may not be ideal, but is it wrong to celebrate Christ’s birth on a day that was formerly a pagan holiday?

         
      • Adask

        December 26, 2012 at 2:31 PM

        1. I agree that knowing the the exact date of the Christ’s birth would be ideal but, insofar as no one seems to know the exact date for sure, I see nothing wrong with celebrating the Christ’s birth on an incorrect date. I also agree that the scripture does not say that we must celebrate Christ’s birth. So far as I know, we are not commanded to celebrate the date of the Christ’s resurrection, either. The celebrations of Christ’s birth and resurrection, and the holy day associated with his death are purely customs of men.

        Similarly, my family’s celebration of my father’s birthday on January 1st (even though he didn’t know his true birth date), is just a custom of men (or at least our family). Is there passage in the Bible that orders us to celebrate the birthdays of our parents, selves and children? Not to my knowledge. Unless it’s a previously undiscovered sin to celebrate my father’s birthday, or mine, or even yours, why would it be a sin to celebrate the Christ’s birthday? If I can celebrated my dad’s birthday (not knowing for sure when he was born) why I can’t I celebrate the Christ’s birthday, even though I don’t know the exact date of his birth?

        When you asked and answered, “Where does the scripture say ANYWHERE to remember his birthday & observe Christmas ? The answer is, NOWHERE !!,” you implied that, because God did not command the celebration of his son’s birth, that it may be some sort of sin to do so.

        My question to you is “Where does the scripture say ANYWHERE to NOT remember and CELEBRATE his birthday & observe Christmas?” So far as I know, the answer is also, “NOWHERE!!” Perhaps there was an 11th Commandment that most of us have not yet heard of that reads, “Thou shalt NOT celebrate the Messiah’s birth!” But until I see a commandment from God to NOT celebrate the Christ’s birth, I don’t have a problem with the fact that a celebration is taking place. Yes, there’s a problem with the chosen date for that celebration, but the celebration itself seems at least OK, and probably quite sensible.

        After all, if the Christ had not been born, he could not have died as a sacrifice for my sins. If he had not died, he would not have been resurrected. If he had not been resurrected, I would have no hope for for salvation. Therefore, I see each of these three events (Christ’s birth, Christ’s death/sacrifice, and Christ’s resurrection) as cause for celebration. And given that I have a little bit of common sense, I am grateful for his birth, his sacrifice, and his resurrection. In fact, I’m so grateful for each of those three events, that I’m even willing to celebrate them to the best of my limited ability. For me, it’s a little like “counting my blessings”.

        You, on the other hand, apparently think that because God did not say “Thou SHALT celebrate the Messiah’s birth,” that God must’ve meant “Thou shalt NOT celebrate the Messiah’s birth.” I don’t see that the second flows from the first. The celebration might not be commanded, but it’s not prohibited, either.

        Yet, when you wrote, “Where does the scripture say ANYWHERE to remember his birthday & observe Christmas ? The answer is, NOWHERE !!” you at least imply that there’s something sinful about celebrating the Christ’s birth. Do you suppose that everyone who celebrates Christmas is destined for damnation?

        2. You’ve missed my point. No doubt that December 25th started as a pagan celebration. But, today, that pagan celebration has been largely overwhelmed by the celebration of the Christ’s birth. I merely considered the possibility that by means of “taking control” of that formerly pagan celebration, Christmas may have demonstrated the power and superiority of Christianity over paganism. I’m not saying that’s what’s happened. I’m saying it’s a happy possibility that might be considered.

        As for your claim, “Putting Christ into it [December 25th] does not change that. It is an abomination to put Christ into something Satanic & pagan.” Perhaps so, but who is the ruler of this earth today? The Christ or the Prince of the Air? If the earth is currently under the control of Satan, was it an “abomination” for God to place the Christ on this earth to be crucified? By allowing his son to be born into a world that was arguably pagan and even Satanic, did God commit an abomination? Was it an “abomination” when the Christ (after 40 days of fasting) met Satan and conversed with him while he was “tempted”?

        Sooner or later, Christ is coming back to this earth (a temple of paganism and Satanism) for a big, final war. Do you claim that it will be an abomination for the Christ to again be “put into” this pagan/Satanic world?

        If it’s not an abomination for the Christ to return to battle against Satan on what appears to be Satan’s “home court,” are you sure that it’s an “abomination” for Christianity to “mix with” and then overcome paganism on December 25th?

         
      • deb

        December 26, 2012 at 12:26 PM

        Flatwood @ Dec. 26, 1:15 AM
        “If you mean the lake of fire & brimstone where the Bible says some WILL BE cast into, it will be to late to pray. Besides,those who ARE thrown into HELL are not going to be leaping from brick to brick for eternity crying out in agony. They will be instantly consumed. YHWH is not a sadistic monster. If someone lives a thousand years, & during that 1,000 years rebels knowingly & deliberately, is it merciful to torture him for 10 million years? & that would be more like just a second when you consider that eternity never ends. It’s eternal punishMENT. NOT, punish-ING. He is deceased for eternity. He no longer exists.”

        Your thoughts are just your (assumed–wrong) thoughts regarding the Merciful God–I don’t find it in any scripture about being instantly consumed and deceased for eternity–scripture please. But here are just a few scripture verses that say otherwise:

        Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matt.25:41

        And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life eternal. Matt.25:46

        And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15

        And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER. Rev.20:10-

        And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
        I don’t know about you, but, for ever and ever, everlasting and eternal, pretty much mean without end.

        As far as Yahweh being “sadistic” NO but He is a JUST God, to those who utterly rejected what Christ did on the tree.

        No it is not wrong to pray while in hell–the rich man prayed to Abraham to send the Lazarus to his brothers–it doesn’t mean they will get salvation since it would be too late then. And then there is that gnashing of teeth and wailing too.

         
      • Adask

        December 26, 2012 at 1:52 PM

        You’re making my point. I didn’t suggest that prayers in Hell would be effective. I merely suggested that even prayers in Hell would not be wrong.

         
    • Flatwood

      December 25, 2012 at 11:16 PM

      Michael !!!

      I sincerely hope you are feeling better. WOW !! Michael, we are on the “same train.” I type my comment & as I scroll down, I see you have typed the almost exact same thing. I am not copying you. If I am,then I lied, & I KNOW what Yeshua & his Father think of liars. IF you ever “leave again” I would certainly like to keep in touch but I don’t know how. Also, I f you read ANY of my comments & I say something that doesn’t set right, PLEASE tell me!!!

       
      • Michael

        December 26, 2012 at 9:04 AM

        Flatwood,

        Thank you for your concerns. As far as being on the “same train” is concerned, all I am trying to do is to be a good servant of my heavenly Father. Father knows I have often gotten it wrong. I am thankful His compassions are new every morning. I do not know Him as well as I would like. I am working on it and only seek His will. As Jim Staley puts it, I want to do it YHWH’s way not my own. Many things feel right to us, but YHWH is holy and He does not like us using unholy things He despises to mix in with what He teaches. I little leaven is like a little sin, it corrupts the whole loaf.

        If you would like to keep in touch I do have a forum that is by invitation only. Not much happening there now, but you are free to join. That way we can make contact either via email or via the forum. I usually don’t give my email out on other forums/blogs any longer.

        Anyway, the forum addy is:http://praisehim247.freeforums.org

        Look forward to seeing you there. Be patient with me though. :-)

         
    • Flatwood

      December 26, 2012 at 1:31 AM

      Re: > but the reason for the season.

      The reason is a lie & unreasonable for those who have the “eyes to see” & ears “to hear.”

       
    • Joe Joseph

      December 26, 2012 at 6:24 PM

      Jeremiah 10 speaks volumes as well. The reason we don’t know Christ’s birth date is because He didn’t want it exalted or worshiped! We as believers in the One true God should do our due diligence to spread God’s love and message every day. Setting one day apart is not what God intended. Lovely music nonetheless!

       
      • Flatwood

        December 26, 2012 at 8:41 PM

        Hi, Joe Joseph,
        You are right. So right. Yes, the music is part of the,”hook.” beautiful colors,etc. And, there was a time when I was right in the midst of them all. It was exciting, until it was revealed to me what it was really all about. & it was painful to see & know the truth about it. Still, I have never known of anyone being born every year, & in less than 4 months a grown up man, but being shown as dead on a cross. I say to myself, how can I see what is going on, & hardly anyone else can? You, & Michael, & I’m sure a few others, “see” but, by far most do not. & look how it is still justified by those who KNOW that at least part of the “celebration” is based on untruths, but obviously not enough untruths to not want to be a part of it. In fact, by what some say, it’s the untruths they know of that attracts them to want to be a part of it the most & deceiving themselves by saying, God understands & approves what I want to do. Oh yes, the god of this evil world most certainly does approve it WOW !!!

         
  8. Lise from Maine

    December 25, 2012 at 10:34 AM

    Hi!

    Merry Christmas to all!

    Lise from Maine

     
  9. Jerry Lee

    December 25, 2012 at 11:58 AM

    Al and readers need to listen to…theamericanvoice.com/
    AVR AUDIO ARCHIVES… Covanter’s Call – Pastor Mike Hoover; today if possible as I do not know if it will be rotated off.
    Pastor Hooven seems to always give the ‘True” meaning of Christmas as he has in the past. At 16 minutes into the program is the start of his Christmas message, enjoy.

     
  10. oldraskill

    December 25, 2012 at 12:44 PM

    Christmas is not things you buy; it’s love you give. Love you give without condition or want.

     
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 3:08 PM

      Another “sounds good & seems right” statements. Why ? Because it sounds & seems right.

       
  11. dakota dingo

    December 25, 2012 at 1:12 PM

    I wish to extend a wish for a happy Christ birth celebration in every home, and enjoy the wonder and holiness of his birth. The practical and meaningful outward expression of Christ’s message is to love one another, and to do good to all men, for this is what Christ preached. Now for those who practice evil, their day of reckoning will visit them in due time.

    I have long wondered at the point in time we will see the fulfillment of Rev. 18, the fall of Babylon. In particular the 11th verse ” And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore,”..

    Will there be “Christmas” or “Easter” or “Thanksgiving” in America any longer then??

    Yes, it is indeed a commercial event, for the most part, but as Al puts it, it’s not as much the ‘season’ as it is the ‘reason’, and if we throw off the commercial trappings of this event, of our Saviours birth, and honor Him, we will do well. And do observe the traditions God commanded Israel, in the New Covenant, and you will be secured by His promises.

    It used to be in traditional past, that the worshipers CREATED the atmosphere of their celebration, they took pains to create their ornaments, their garments, their homes and meals, and their hearts through scriptural observances. It was every bit as much a physical involvement, as it was a spiritual one. But now the masses go to the stores and buy with their plastic, cheesy ornaments and ‘religious symbols’ of every sort, and feel ‘spiritual’ in the moment for having ‘observed’ the event. Wow. God is impressed, don’t you think?

    I am forever reminded of the words of an elder Jewish Christian friend, who said “for many people their religious proclamations are nothing more than a spiritual burp!”

    It’s only knowing Him that gives us life, so celebrate that!
    from the prairie heartland.

    Peace to all, in 2013~ and may you all be blessed with health, happiness and prosperity!

     
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 3:15 PM

      dakota dingo.
      I like your name !!!

       
  12. Michael

    December 25, 2012 at 2:29 PM

    Why would a holy God want a lie to be used to teach people about Him? The fact is, Yeshua was not born on December 25. Yes, we were blessed by our heavenly Father when He sent His Son Yeshua to us. I am thankful everyday for that blessing. I do not use a pagan tradition to celebrate His birth. That is a lie and an abomination to Him. He is about truth, and December 25 has nothing to do with the birth of Yeshua no matter how much people want to believe it does.

    Also the new year has nothing to with with January 1. The biblical new year is in the spring, when new life springs forth. We have become so indoctrinated with the traditions of men and paganism we have lost our way. People do not fear YHWH any longer and do not the things of YHWH.

    Why did He give us His word, if He does not want us to follow His teachings? He said: John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. Luke 10:37 “And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Do we show our love for YHWH when we teach lies about Him? If Yeshua was not born on December 25, why do so-called believers worship that as the day of His birth? And to top that all off, telling kids that Santa Claus gives them presents on that day as well.

    Yes, I am thankful for my Savior everyday. I am thankful for the faith and salvation He has given me because He loves me and chose me from before the foundation of the world (see Ephesians 1:4). Deuteronomy 7:6 “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.” Do love Him enough to share the truth about Him?

    I hope you will take what I have shared in the spirit it is intended. It is with a heart of love and gratitude for what my Savior has done for me. I hope and pray He has done the same for you

     
    • Adask

      December 25, 2012 at 3:37 PM

      A lie is an intentional misstatement of the truth. I don’t see how a people who don’t know the true date of the Christ’s birth can be said to be intentionally telling or celebrating a lie when they intend to celebrate the Christ’s birth. I agree that we can probably do a better job of determining when the Christ was born, but so far as I know, no one can absolutely tell us the exact date on which the Christ was born.

      I’m not convinced that knowing the exact date is absolutely crucial. My own father never knew his real date of birth. He was born to Russian serfs and birthdays weren’t known or celebrated by them. When my dad was old enough to ask when he was born my grandmother told him she thought was probably in the winter, but she didn’t exactly recall. My dad eventually chose January 1st to be his date of birth, and we had birthday parties for him on that date. He never seemed to mind. We didn’t mind. We celebrated my father’s birthday once a year. He received presents. We enjoyed cake and ice cream. A good time was had by all.

      Perhaps the Christ is like my father in that it may not be critical to him that we celebrate his birth on only the exactly correct date.

      One of the comments on this blog claims that the Christ was born during the Feast of the Tabernacles. The Feast of the Tabernacles occurs on the 15th day of Tishrei on the Jewish calendar. That may be the correct date to celebrate, but does it make a difference if we celebrate the Christ’s birth on a date associated with the Jewish calendar or should we celebrate a date in a “Year of Our Lord”?

      Plus, according to Wikipedia, the Feast of the Tabernacles lasts for 7 days (8 days in the diaspora). On which exact date during the Feast of the Tabernacles was the Christ born?

      Plus, according to Wikipedia, the days of the month of Tishrei range “variously from late September to late October”. This implies that we might celebrate the Christ’s birth on October 30th this year and September 10th in another year. So, even if we adopt the Hebrew calendar, it may still be difficult to pin which of the 7 (or 8) days of the Feast of the Tabernacles was the exact date of the Christ’s birth.

      So, until I see more precise evidence of which date in the Feast of the Tabernacles is the exact date of Christ’s birth, I am going to continue to presume that, to this day, no living man knows the exact date of the Christ’s birth. It may be that we know that December 25th was not the date of the Christ’s birth, but if we don’t know the true, exact date, we are almost as likely to celebrating on the wrong date if celebrate on October 30th as we are on December 25th.

      All of this becomes extremely legalistic. We begin to sound like a bunch of Pharisees. I know it would be better if we celebrated Christ’s birth on his exact date of birth. But if we don’t know the exact date, should all celebration cease until we do?

      If I recall correctly, there’s passage in the New Testament wherein the Christ says something about we can only enter Heaven as a child–not as a damned Hebrew lawyer. Innocent, eager, loving, optimistic, and necessarily ignorant. A child. I see children–even in the form of people older than me–celebrating Christmas. I know that most of the kids are just in it for the toys. But I also know that some of us “kids” grow up to really celebrate the “reason” for Christmas. Even if we “children” celebrate on the wrong day, some of our hearts are in the right place, and I expect that such “children” (though ignorant and therefore mistaken in their dates) may not pass the Hebrew lawyers’ bar exam, but will nevertheless be welcomed into Heaven.

       
      • Michael

        December 25, 2012 at 3:51 PM

        I do not know how it happened but my response was posted under the Dennis Craig R.I.P. thread, so I am posting it here where it should be..

        Let me ask you a question Al. If YHWH did not put the exact date of Yeshua’s birth in His word, then is it His birth or His death and resurrection that we should be focused on? Ecclesiastes 7:1 “A good name is better than a good ointment, And the day of one’s death is better than the day of one’s birth. Why do people celebrate their birthday? To bring attention to self or to YHWH? Are we not to die to self. Matthew 16:24 “Then Jesus said to His disciples, ‘If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.’” Is celebrating my birthday denying myself?

        Is ignorance an excuse to brake YHWH’s Law? Is lying breaking His Law? What does YHWH say to a people that lake knowledge? Hosea 4:6 “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.”

         
      • Adask

        December 25, 2012 at 8:06 PM

        You make a good point. If our Father YHWH ha Elohiym didn’t make clear the exact date of the Christ’s birth, then that date is probably not particularly important–at least not to God. But if the date of the Christ’s birth is unimportant to God, why are we making such a fuss as to whether that date was December 25th or October 10th April 24th? If that date is not particularly important, then the celebration of the Christ’s birth is more of a man-made celebration than one that’s God-made. OK–then why can’t man (not knowing the truth of the exact date) pick any date mankind agrees on? No big deal, no big fuss. Celebrate Christmas whenever you like and you will not offend God.

        But as for the Bible making a point of declaring when the Christ died, that’s not exactly true. As you probably know, there is a controversy over when the Christ was actually crucified and died. As I understand it, it is generally believed that the Christ was crucified and died on “Good Friday”; he lay in the tomb for three days; and he rose on Easter Sunday. The problem is that there’s only two days between Good Friday and Easter Sunday. I.e., if the Christ died a noon on Good Friday, noon on the following Saturday would be one day; noon on Easter Sunday would mark the end of the second day.

        Some people contend that this is evidence that the Christ must’ve been crucified and died on Thursday rather than Good Friday. If he died at noon on Thursday, noon on Good Friday would mark the end of the first day; noon on Saturday would mark the end of the second day; and noon on Easter Sunday would mark the end of three days. I know that Hebrews reckoned days to start at sundown. I know that the term “three days” might mean two full days and only a part of a third day. I know that there are various opinions to support or deny the opinion that the Christ died on Good Friday. But my point is that there is no studied consensus as to whether we “know” that the Christ died on a Thursday or a Friday.

        Some scholars claim that the Christ was born in 3 B.C. rather than 1 A.D.

        Thus, it appears that the Bible does not absolutely inform us of the date of the Christ’s birth or death. Only the day of resurrection is pretty much agreed to: Sunday. Perhaps that’s as it should be. Christianity is not based on the Christ’s birth or on his death. It’s all about the day of his Resurrection. In terms of my salvation, it’s not too important that the Christ was born or that he ultimately died. We’re all born; we’ll all die. That’s no biggie. But if the Christ was resurrected, then I have hope of salvation. And we do celebrate Easter as the day (Sunday) of the Christ’s resurrection. The date for Easter varies each year–presumably to stay consistent with the Hebrew calendar.

        Ignorance is not an excuse for breaking God’s law, but it can be a consideration. Should we hold a child (who, by definition, must be “ignorant”) to the level of liability as a man?

        Sometimes ignorance can excuse sin. As for rejecting knowledge, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a child that rejects knowledge. They all want to learn–at least at first. As adults, some of us still have a child’s ambition to learn. But I’m a senior citizen and I guarantee that even after years of study, I have not yet “learned it all” nor do I expect to acquire perfect knowledge in this life. Bear in mind that I’m not rejecting knowledge, I just don’t have enough time and brains to acquire perfect knowledge of everything. Am I (and billions more) doomed to damnation if my earthly knowledge is incomplete?

        Or, when the God says “My people perish for lack of knowledge,” is He talking about a very limited and precise bit of “knowledge”? If so, what precise bit of knowledge is God referring to?

         
      • Michael

        December 25, 2012 at 10:07 PM

        Actually Al, the Bible is clear that Yeshua died and was in the grave three days and three nights. If He died on Friday and rose on Sunday that would not be three days and three nights in the grave. Even if He died on Thursday that would still not be three days and three nights. Remember the biblical day starts at evening at sundown, not 12:01 am. Messiah was crucified on Wednesday just before the start of an high holy day (Thursday), a Sabbath (not the weekly Sabbath). He was brought down just before the start of the high holy day and placed in the tomb. He was in the grave Thursday evening and morning, one day and night, Friday evening and morning two days and nights, Saturday evening and day, three days and nights, and then He rose on the Start of First Fruits just at sundown Sunday evening. I have a study on this topic I will send you if you like so you may research it out.

        As far as celebrating “Christmas” is concerned, you really need to watch the video I posted the link too. It answers the questions pretty well.

         
  13. Michael

    December 25, 2012 at 4:43 PM

    When YHWH’s word states the day of a man’s death is better than the day of his birth, what do you think is meant by that? Could it be because life is so full of trials, tribulations, heartaches, and sufferings that he longs to be with Messiah? Did Yeshua’s death and resurrection defeat death, hell, and the grave or did His birth?

    Don’t get me wrong, I celebrate His birth everyday. It matters not to me what the day is.

    I highly recommend the following video be watched regarding “Christmas”:

    I will let Jim Staley teach now. I am in agony and can no longer type.

    Peace

     
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 3:52 AM

      Michael,
      Don’t you just shake your head in disbelief at “some” of the responses you get re: your posts about Yeshua? It is obvious that it is not a “matter of intellectual capacity” to understand the “truth of YHWH.” I’m glad I am not very smart. Some are going to have to learn like Pharaoh did in the Red Sea climax.

       
  14. ron

    December 25, 2012 at 8:18 PM

    Yeshua was born on the day of Pentecost.

     
    • Flatwood

      December 25, 2012 at 11:02 PM

      Re >Yeshua was born on the day of Pentecost.

      What day would that be, & what is your source of knowledge for that conclusion,knowledge, or whatever you call it ? IF you answer to at least the day, I would almost guarantee you will say, Sunday. I would still like to know your source.

       
      • ron

        December 26, 2012 at 10:19 PM

        Seek and Ye Shall Find. It is there. Good Luck but I feel that I would be doing us both a dis- service in trying to cast my pearls before you. But it is in Exodus, Leviticus, Acts, and the pregnancy of Elizabeth and Mary have clues.

         
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 3:23 AM

      Yes, ron, you are right. I thank you for not casting “YOUR” pearls before me.

       
      • ron

        December 27, 2012 at 6:45 AM

        Your welcome, have a great day.

         
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 3:18 PM

      ron, You have a great life. That’s a lot of great days.

       
  15. Gary

    December 25, 2012 at 10:50 PM

    I agree with Michael’s post regarding the day Christ died. It was between 3 PM and 6PM on Wednesday, and he arose sometime after 6 PM on Saturday. When Mary M. and the others arrived early Sunday morning they found that Christ had already risen.

    Regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, I would refer you to a book published in 1982 by the AMERICAN CHRISTIAN PRESS authored by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille. In his book he documents thru intense scriptural documentation and countless astronomical records the month, day, year, and time of our lord’s birth. Quoting from this fantastic book page 74, “According to chronological tables, September 11, 3 B.C. fell on a Wednesday. Jesus Christ was born on the Hebrew day corresponding to our sunset September 11, Wednesday. Therefore, Jesus Christ was born on Wednesday, September 11, 3 B.C., between 6:18 and 7:39 P.M., Palestine time.”

    The book continues stating “Hense, in Biblical terminology, Jesus was born on the first of Tishri, between 6:18 and 7:39 P.M. On this night the remarkable astronomical configuration described in Revelation 12:1 occurred: Virgo, the Woman, was clothed with the sun and the moon rested under her feet.”

     
    • Flatwood

      December 26, 2012 at 1:40 AM

      Hi Gary,
      I have wondered what he did from “after 6pm until he was first saw by Mary, several hours later,Sunday morning” ? I’m with you & Michael about the “time element” but I have thought about this question I asked you, for many years.

       
      • Gary

        December 26, 2012 at 9:38 PM

        Hi Flatwood…after he arose from the sepulcher, scripture says he immediately went to the “imprisoned spirits”, the ones responsible for the great flood of Noah. (These same spirits will be released to reign havoc over the earth after the gathering together of the saints prior to the time of Revelations.) Further, the scripture says he showed himself as the promised Messiah, the Son of God. I have often thought that in his resurrected body he presented himself, victorious and fearless, face to face with these horrendously evil spirits. I’ll bet they cowered and groveled in fear while in his presence.

         
    • patrick

      December 27, 2012 at 7:54 AM

      Gary – this probably wont even be seen, its two days later but i did a search for sept 11…you nailed it…the POPE just came out about a month ago and confirmed Dr Wierwille stating that the calendar is off and that most likely jesus was born on sept 11 :)

      gee…there’s those numbers together again…

       
  16. Gary

    December 25, 2012 at 10:51 PM

    By the way…the name of the book in my previous post is “JESUS CHRIST OUR PROMISED SEED”

     
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 3:17 AM

      Thaks Gary,

      I understand what you said & agree. 1 Peter 3: 18, if I remember right.Yes, I believe you are right too, when you say: “I’ll bet they cowered and groveled in fear while in hispresence. Just “believing”
      he exists makes them tremble, according to the scriptures. It is a welcome relief for me not to be alone in our like understanding. 3 of us, so far, You, Michael, & me. To the rest, we are the 3 scrooges. Doesn’t bother me 1 iota. I prefer being a scrooge than a stooge. Shalom, dear one.

       
  17. Flatwood

    December 26, 2012 at 3:03 PM

    @deb
    @December 26, 2012 at 12:26 PM

    Hi deb, & thanks for your “astute” response. Are you ready to become more astute? Do you think it’s possible? I need to have your answer to this before possibly wasting both of our time & beating a “dead horse” so to speak. Deeper understanding on your part of what the scriptures you gave, truly means,will show that it’s something other than what you say it means. Let’s start with the first “cherry picker” you came up with.

    1.- Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matt.25:41.

    PREPARED for WHO? Now let’s be fair, deb. Prepared for WHO? Who is this “everlasting fire” prepared for? Are flesh & blood people, angels? If you don’t agree that “the devil & his angels” ARE “spirit beings” & not flesh & blood beings, we might as well stop right here. And, remember, I DID NOT say that “spirit beings” are consumed instantly. Also, I need your response to the 1st two questions I asked of you in the beginning of this/my response to you before the remaining scriptures you gave, are addressed. Keep this in mind too. If you asked me the 1st two questions I asked you, I would say, Of course, absolutely. What sayest thou,deb? Also, if this proceeds any further, let’s be straightforward with each other & not throw in any “curveballs, red herrings, etc. I have had a little experience with people like you, but, still, I try to give the benefit of the doubt, probably very foolish of me to keep doing this.

     
    • deb

      December 26, 2012 at 4:39 PM

      I am not confrontational but apparently you are. It’s ok to admit you are wrong. No one will hold it against you. And if you lack wisdom, ask Yahweh which giveth to all men liberally.

      But before you and I can have a meaningful dialogue, please provide the scripture which state that people will be instantly consumed and deceased for eternity?

      @ “PREPARED for WHO? Now let’s be fair, deb. Prepared for WHO? Who is this “everlasting fire” prepared for? Are flesh & blood people, angels? If you don’t agree that “the devil & his angels” ARE “spirit beings” & not flesh & blood beings, we might as well stop right here. And, remember, I DID NOT say that “spirit beings” are consumed instantly.”

      the issue here is not who it is PREPARED for(which is for the devil and his seed), but the FACT that it is EVERLASTING FIRE, as in WITHOUT END.

      And here are a few more cherries–gotta love cherries:

      And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into THE FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED: Where their worm dieth not, and THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into THE FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED:AND if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into HELL FIRE: Where their worm dieth not, and THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. Mark 9:43-48

      I hear Yeshua’s WORD (He is the Word) very clearly–do you?

      Perhaps your moniker should be ‘clanging cymbal’ instead :-)

       
  18. Flatwood

    December 26, 2012 at 6:09 PM

    deb,My thought about you was right, sad to say, but I’ll shoot marbles with you,at least for a while, since I I ain’t got nuthun else to do. First, you confronted me. 2nd, you did not respond to ANYTHING I asked in my response to your 1st confrontational challenge to me.3rd, I said spirit,this time you say,seed. You did not say seed in your 1st confrontational challenge to me. The only seed I am aware of, produces after its kind. Spirit beings to the best of my knowledge do not produce more spirit beings,like or as flesh & blood beings can produce more of their kind. 4th, Everlasting fire is everlasting fire,nothing more,nothing less. 5th,YES, I do love cherries but I’ll bet my life you don’t fit into that pristine category.It appears that you prefer sour grapes.6th,according to everything you bring up that might need to be “cut off” & seeing where you are going, by seeing where you are coming from,there will nothing left to throw into that “everlasting fire.” You keep emphasing in all caps,statements that only say what fire is,i.e. everlasting, unquenchable. The sun itself is a “Ball of fire.” What are you so fired up about? You didn’t recently get fired, hopefully. Fire Fire Fire seems to be the extent of your vocabulary. 7th, re: where their worm dieth not. There was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where people dumped their refuse & some of this refuse,”drew worms.” Most of this dump contained burnable material. It was in use everyday. 8th, Re: I hear Yeshua’s WORD (He is the Word) very clearly–do you? deb, dear lady,You already know & have the answer to that question & you know you do. 9th,Re:Perhaps your moniker should be ‘clanging cymbal’ instead :-) Whatever you say, dear one. We sure learned a lot, didn’t we? :)

     
    • deb

      December 26, 2012 at 6:49 PM

       
    • Flatwood

      December 26, 2012 at 9:51 PM

      p.s.
      My mo-jo is still working, but how did you know my moniker was poopin out? There is about a two inch black space on the left & right side from top 2 bottom, but how did you know that? Are you 1 of those ICU people too?? You give up 2 easily. I thought you would be a little feistier. Take a long hard look at Matthew 10:28.

       
      • deb

        December 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM

        Well clanging cymbal, you must not like cherries or grapes. Don’t disparage the grapes as sour just because you can’t reach them. They are both fruit and only good soil can bring forth good fruit. It seems you are more familiar with the soil that brings forth thorns and thistles, and no one likes pricks. Heb. 6:8

        Re: Matt. 10:28 yes, agreed–“then death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE and If anyone’s name was not found in the book of life was thrown into ….THE LAKE OF FIRE” Rev. 20:14,15– you know…the one that burns with sulfur, where they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever without end, where there is gnashing of teeth and their worm dieth not?

         
  19. Anon4fun

    December 27, 2012 at 2:43 PM

    Flatwood:

    >>There was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where people dumped their refuse & some of this refuse, “drew worms.”

    Right you are. The city dump of Jerusalem, where garbage and certain human and animal bodies were incinerated, was called Gehenna, translated “hell” in English versions of the New Testament.

    The “eternal barbecue” version of hell where people are tortured forever after death is a medieval invention completely absent from the actual Bible. Now, isn’t that a relief. Merry Christmas.

     
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 4:49 PM

      Thanks, Anon4fun,

      When we’re right about so many things, it is hard to be humble,….. isn’t it? (-: (-: (-:

       
    • deb

      December 27, 2012 at 6:12 PM

      Do you really believe Yeshua used a medieval invention of Gehenna to describe his warnings? Do you even know what he was referring to when he mentioned Gehenna?–it’s in the OT. Are you sure that what you think you know about a garbage dump is correct?

       
  20. Flatwood

    December 27, 2012 at 4:22 PM

    Temper Temper Temper, Deborah. But, fiery, fiery fiery is a better word.Settle down now deb,& present yourself as the sweet little girl you KNOW you are.

    @and no one likes pricks. Heb. 6:8

    With this, I agree, especially educated derelicts ……….as you imply I am. That’s ok. I am to anyone what he/she thinks I am. I understand this. I said from the “git-go” I would shoot marbles with you for a while, but since you are losing most of yours, I am going to be benevolent & leave you with a few marbles left. I don’t want you to lose them all. Others can look up the scriptures you give & come to their own conclusions. Apparently you believe “death means eternal life.” If that was true, Adam & Eve had nothing to be concerned about, did they?

     
    • Flatwood

      December 27, 2012 at 4:34 PM

      deb, p.s.
      @ Don’t disparage the grapes as sour just because you can’t reach them.

      Well, you could if you really wanted to. But I guess the vine they are on is probably either too big OR not BIG enough for you.

       
    • deb

      December 27, 2012 at 5:42 PM

      At first I thought…what??? naah…it can’t be…could it??? Don??? is that you???

      What happened? You said you were glad Alfred banned you from his blog, that you didn’t want to be on here anyways, with the likes of Alfred, since you did not want to be associated with ANY Anti Christ teachers. I’m surprised he let you back in.

      But Don, seriously, your mind is in Gehenna. And here I thought you were being refined by the refiner’s fire. Boy was I wrong about the content being refined. But then it was your kind of love (a throned crown) that pricked the Savior’s brow–that same love you bring to your comments! Yes, the love of Yeshua sure emanates through you–hmm. You must be very proud of yourself.

       
      • Flatwood

        December 27, 2012 at 6:28 PM

        deb,
        @At first I thought… < This implies that you, at least at times, have 2nd thoughts. Re: naah…it can’t be…could it??? < There ya go. Finally revealing,yourself,the way you really think,This is really your mindset, i.e., naah…it can’t be…could it??? Re: Don??? is that you???< Maybe You & Palani have been secretly exchanging thoughts. I wish I could say, yes, I am "Don" but I can't. If my presumption that your name is, Deborah, is wrong, I apologize. Maybe it's Debra. BUT, I betcha it's one or the other, for sure.
        @I’m surprised he let you back in.< Let's see IF this comment is allowed to be posted because I'm starting to think that a few people would rather I "just go away."

        As to the remainder of your post, there is no response needed………. from me.

         
      • deb

        December 27, 2012 at 6:43 PM

        “I wish I could say, yes, I am “Don” but I can’t.” Ah–“a double minded man is unstable in all his ways” James 1:8–I get it.

         
      • Adask

        December 27, 2012 at 10:10 PM

        Truly, you might not be able to honestly say that your (proper) name is “Don”–but could you say your name was “Donald Blaine Bailey”? Could you honestly say it was not?

         
      • Adask

        December 27, 2012 at 10:44 PM

        How very perceptive you are, “deb”.

        As it turns out the email address for Flatwood is “bbblackmun@comcast.net” while Don’s email address is/was “donaldbailey02@comcast.net”. Interesting coincidence, hmm? Both email addresses are serviced by “comcast.net”

        Don also used the email handle “Donald Blaine-Bailey”. Curiously, the two “B’s” in “Blaine-Bailey” remind me of the “bb” in “bbblackmun@comcast.net” Another coincidence, hmm?

        Curiouser and curiouser, the IP address for both Flatwood and Don is 50.130.129.88. Gee, what are the odds, hmm? Another amazing coincidence. Somebody call Guiness. I think we’re setting a record here–unless Flatwood and Don Bailey are one in the same.

        Insofar as Don has “said you were glad Alfred banned you from his blog, that you didn’t want to be on here anyways, with the likes of Alfred, since you did not want to be associated with ANY Anti Christ teachers. I’m surprised he let you back in,” I have a few brief remarks to make.

        First, I’m not an “Anti-Christ teacher”. I regard such characterizations as lies. And I take more than a little offense at being characterized as such.

        Second, if Flatwood is actually Don, I didn’t “let” him back in. Don donned the “sheep’s clothing” of “Flatwood” and snuck in.

        Third, if Don is sincere in his faith in the Christ, and if Don believes I’m an “Anti Christ teacher,” it wouldn’t be a “surprise” that a devilish sort like myself would allow the ever-holy Don to reenter this devilish blog, but it would be very surprising if the ever-holy Don would want to reenter this “blog of iniquity”. Why would a true Christian want to hang out on an “Anti Christ teacher’s” blog? If Don wants to attend the blog of an “Anti Christ teacher,” doesn’t that suggest that he’s insincere in his faith?

        Fourth, if Don is sincere in his faith shouldn’t he be opposed to bearing false witness? If so, how can Don honestly describe me as an “Anti Christ teacher” and himself as a sincere Christian, and still want to be around this blog so badly that he’s willing to lie and deceive to be here? On the third hand, if Don lied when described me as an “Anti Christ teacher,” he can’t really be sincere in his faith, can he?

        I don’t actually know that “Flatwood” is “Don”. So far as I know, “Flatwood” has generally “played nice” on this blog over the past few weeks. So I have no cause to ban “Flatwood” and I don’t intend to do so.

        However, I am going to update the “banishment” list to include Don’s last reported IP address. See, last time Don tried to post a comment, he called me a “damn liar” and I took offense. And now I hear that Don is telling others that I’m an “Anti Christ teacher”. So again, I take offense. Therefore, I think it would be best if I and Don separated.

        I’m going to take control of this blog and try to keep Don from sneaking in. But I leave all the rest of the world to Don. Don can have all the other blogs. Everything except this little blog.

        In fact, as wise and prolific as Don is, I don’t see why he’d want to hang around here. Surely, he could start his own blog (they’re free, y’know) and soon have hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of readers eager to hear Don’s one, true version of the truth about Christ.

         
      • deb

        December 28, 2012 at 2:11 AM

        Alfred, I am hoping it is not Don because i thought of him as a blog friend, erring at times but still a friend. He never said the real reason why he was no longer allowed to post. I am sorry for exposing him as I did (it was unkind) and I’m saddened by the turn of events–especially if Flatwood is really Don and why the unwarranted disparaging remarks toward me.

         
      • Adask

        December 28, 2012 at 1:09 PM

        I’m not sure what “disparaging remarks” you’re referring to. Just in case you think I made any disparaging remarks about you, I certainly had no such intention.

         
      • deb

        December 28, 2012 at 1:37 PM

        Alfred, it wasn’t you. It was Flatwood’s disparaging remarks or attacks, if you would, that also saddened me (beside the falling out you two had)–I couldn’t figure out why he was in attack mode toward me.

         
      • Adask

        December 28, 2012 at 3:00 PM

        It doesn’t make much sense, but a tendency to attack seems to be his nature. I’m not running this blog for the purpose of supporting personal attacks by or among the readers. I put up with a certain amount of it, but I don’t see a need for uncivil language. I don’t see the need for insults. We all succumb to making insults from time to time, but why stoop to that level? For me, it’s like kids gloating over the graffiti they painted on somebody’s wall. That graffiti can be cute and even artistic. But there’s always an element of vandalism in that graffiti. Don’t those of us who write and/or read this blog have enough troubles with government to avoid “vandalizing” (disrespecting) each other? It’s a personal thing. It’s a subjective thing. But sometimes I’ve just “had enough” with the vandals. Especially when they smirk. They think they’re so clever that they can “vandalize” other people’s comments and even smirk about it. I don’t respect that kind of conduct.

         
      • deb

        December 28, 2012 at 8:36 PM

        I think a little banter back and forth is good and can ease some of the tense moments we all deal with at times. But you’re right, there’s no need to retort to insults.

         
  21. Anon4fun

    December 27, 2012 at 8:35 PM

    deb:

    Jesus did not reference the medieval concept of hell, since it had not been invented yet. When Jesus mentions Gehenna, he refers to a well known place by that name, i.e. the city dump of Jerusalem. In metaphoric terms, Gehenna (translated as “hell” in English versions of the New Testament) stands for the corruption that is the final fate of all garbage, animals, and unredeemed humanity.

    Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    Isaiah 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

     
    • deb

      December 28, 2012 at 1:17 AM

      Thanks for clarifying it Anon

       
      • Yartap

        December 28, 2012 at 7:11 PM

        deb,

        This may help, too. Revelations 20: 14, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

         
      • Yartap

        December 28, 2012 at 7:27 PM

        deb,

        Maybe I’m wrong, but I have always equated hell with the grave; not as fire and brimestone as the “lake of fire” as found in Revelations or what most think as the Devils playground. Even, the Devil does not want to be in the lake of fire.

         
      • deb

        December 28, 2012 at 10:07 PM

        Yartap,

        We know that when Christ comes again, “time shall be no more” Rev.10:6–“one day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day”? No more “time” as we know it.

        This is how I understand it. When the second death occurs, (cast in the lake of fire), it will always be in the moment, because just as we will be living in a perpetual moment for eternity with Christ, so will the dead without Christ, death, hell, Satan and his minions will all be dying a perpetual death, in the moment, in the lake of fire. Can we understand a multi dimensional God?

        It has nothing to do with what I think God should or shouldn’t do, just or unjust. If He says everlasting fire who am I to debate Him? Can the clay tell the potter what he should do? Some are for honor and some for dishonor. Besides, one of His attributes is just or justice.

        I am/will be eternally grateful for being chosen before the foundations were created to be His. So all glory and honor, praise and hallelujahs to Him belong.

         
      • Michael

        December 29, 2012 at 1:50 PM

        Just want to make a correction for those that are calling the “Book of Revelation” Revelations. It is not plural, it is singular, Revelation. We do not need to be changing any of the titles in His word.

         
  22. Michael

    December 27, 2012 at 9:31 PM

    I will say YHWH has been working on me for some time now regarding humility. There are a few posters here that could use some. This is not about egos, but what does YHWH have to say. I can say I used to believe in an eternal torment, but my thinking has changed more recently. The reason I say that is because we do not choose YHWH to be saved, He chooses us. He is the Potter and we are the clay (Romans Chapter 9), That chapter states He fashions some for glory and some for destruction. Destruction does not mean eternal torment. He does what He does because it pleases Him to do so. So a loving God that creates to eternally torment someone, what does that say about YHWH? That it pleases Him to torture people? A loving God would not do that would He?

    I post the following for your consideration:
    http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm

    I last point I would like to me is, whether it be eternal torment or total annihilation, I don’t want either one. The good news is we have a Father that loves us. I for one, am grateful He chose me from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4, Deuteronomy 7:6). That is very humbling because the Sovereign Creator chose me out of all the people of the earth to be His own possession.,Think about that.

    I know some of you will state we have free will. That is not supported by scripture, but if you believe it is, let me know where to find it ’cause I can’t.

     
    • Yartap

      December 28, 2012 at 6:46 PM

      Michael,

      Please read Ezekiel Chapter 18 for some note about Free Will.

       
      • Yartap

        December 28, 2012 at 7:19 PM

        Michael,

        A Loving God, our God, keeps His word and promise!

        Plus, we know from Revelations 20:10, the devil is tormented for ever and ever. But as I understand, all others receive the Second Death (Rev.20:14 and Rev. 21:8).

        Points to Ponder?

         
      • Michael

        December 29, 2012 at 2:18 PM

        Yartap,

        If you believe man has free will you may want to read the following:

        Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 14:1-3, 53:1-3

        Unless YHWH chooses us we are totally depraved and incapable of choosing him. If Ezekiel 18 states man has free will to not sin, but to choose YHWH instead, then it is contradicting. There must be another meaning and perhaps you may want to go a little deeper.

         
      • deb

        December 29, 2012 at 2:34 PM

        Just a question–did Adam and Eve have free will in the garden?

         
      • Michael

        December 29, 2012 at 2:28 PM

        “Plus, we know from Revelations 20:10, the devil is tormented for ever and ever. But as I understand, all others receive the Second Death (Rev.20:14 and Rev. 21:8).”

        Yartap, who are the all others that you speak of here? You may want to clarify.

        Also you may want to view the following:

        God did not come to save the whole world. He came for His chosen people.

         
      • Michael

        December 29, 2012 at 2:54 PM

        deb, if you are asking me, all I can tell you is, YHWH says in His word they did not. He knew full well what Adam and Eve were going to do. You do not think He was caught off guard do you? Everything that has happened is because YHWH planned it all; every minute detail in His Sovereigny.

         
      • deb

        December 29, 2012 at 3:42 PM

        Michael, do you have scripture verses for @”YHWH says in His word they did not.”–have free will.
        I know we are chosen in the beloved, but can we love Him without free will?

         
      • Michael

        December 29, 2012 at 6:33 PM

        Loving YHWH has nothing to do with free will. The Bible is clear we do not seek Him on our own. He must draw us to Himself. Scripture states nop one seeks after YHWH, If every intent of the thoughts of man’s heart is only evil continually (Genesis 6:5), what makes you think it is possible for man to love YHWH without Him? That verse alone says the man’s only will is to sin.

        Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith (where does the faith come from?); and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of YHWH (so our very faith is a gift from Him, we did not give it to ourselves); not as a result of works that no one should boast.” It has absolutely nothing to do with us and everything to do with YHWH. This is called justification and has nothing to do with sanctification.

        Ephesians 2:10 then goes on to say: “For we are His His workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua for good works. (We were created for what?), which YHWH prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” So YHWH chose us, then gave us faith, and then gave us good works. Now we are able to love Him only because “He chose us in Him (Messiah) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love.” This is sanctification, where YHWH is working in us to conform us to the image of His dear Son. We are only able to love YHWH because He chose us and gave us the ability to love Him.

        Philippians 2:13 “For it is YHWH who is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” So without YHWH working in us are we able to please Him?

        Remember, he chose us, we did not choose Him (John 15:16). To do what? Bear fruit!!

        What makes you believe Adam and Eve had free will just because YHWH told them not to eat of the tree of knowledge? He said of all the trees in the garden they may eat, except from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they may not, for in the day that they do they will surely die. I do not know if you are a parent, but every time I would tell my daughter she could not have something, guess what? She went right for the thing I told her she could not have. Is it because she had free will to do so, or was it just plain disobedience? That is one of the first things a child learns, is to disobey to see what they can get away with.

        I see nothing in scripture where man has free will, but I am willing to be wrong if there is scripture to support it.

         
      • deb

        December 29, 2012 at 7:42 PM

        Michael, @ I see nothing in scripture where man has free will, but I am willing to be wrong if there is scripture to support it.–Michael, I believe the elect are both predestined and have a free will and there are plenty of verses, in the OT and NT to support both positions.

        There are too many to list here, so I’ll give you just two verses spoken by Yeshua.

        Yeshua’s words “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that murdered The Prophets and stoned those who were sent to it! How many times have I desired to gather your children, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing! Matthew 23:37

        and ye will not come to me that ye might have life. John 5:40

         
      • Michael

        December 29, 2012 at 8:40 PM

        deb, I do not see any implication of free will in the two verses you have shared. I would recommend you go to this link and listen to the 6 part series on “The Doctrine of Election”: http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?currpage=8&keyword=John%5EWeaver&SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&AudioOnly=false&sortby=added

        The doctrine of election is a very difficult doctrine to understand. These sermons may help you in that understanding. There is plenty of scriptural foundation if you are willing to have eyes to see and ears to hear. I bid you peace.

         
      • deb

        December 29, 2012 at 9:02 PM

        Thank you for the link Michael, I think I knew you would not see it. I know the doctrine well–I grew up in it. But I also did my own studying as the Bereans. I just choose to put my trust in Yeshua’s Word and not man’s.

         
      • Michael

        December 29, 2012 at 10:05 PM

        deb, I leave you with the following:

        John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

        I too put my faith and trust in Yeshua, the living Word and not man. :-)

         
      • Adask

        December 30, 2012 at 2:59 AM

        I haven’t read Ezekiel 18 for info on free will, but if there’s not free will, then God is not a loving and compassionate God. If you and I are not allowed to freely choose to do right or wrong, and God knows in advance what each of us will choose to do, then each of us is either damned or saved from the moment of our creation and without regard to our actual sins or righteousness in this life.

        Is it reasonable that any man or woman should spend eternity in Hell simply because God condemned him/her to do so regardless of whatever choices he/she made in this life? Why would God even bother to create us and give us life, if He knew from the beginning which of us would be saved and which (even if they chose to lead a righteous life) would be damned.

        The whole idea of “sin” depends on personal responsibility. There can’t be any personal responsibility unless we are free to choose between that which is right and that which is wrong. If we don’t have free will and choosing between right and wrong makes no difference as to whether we are saved or damned, then there is no reason known to man to justify saving some and condemning others.

        Will there be a Judgment Day? Will God judge between the “sheep” and the “goats”? How will He decide who to damn and who to save except based on the choices we made in this life. If we have no free will, we cannot have made any choices. Instead, our lives would be as preset as that of robots.

        What possible reason could God have for making “robots” that He knew from the beginning were destined for damnation?

        The only way the Christian faith can work is if 1) we are free to choose between right and wrong; and 2) we will be held accountable for our choices. We must have the power to freely choose between right and wrong. That means we must have free will.

         
  23. Flatwood

    December 27, 2012 at 10:19 PM

    Adask,
    @ >December 26, 2012 at 2:31 PM

    A. I said, in pertinent part & verbatim: “The exact date or ANY DATE doesn’t matter one iota.”

    B. You, Al, responded by saying: “I agree that knowing the the exact date of the Christ’s birth would be ideal.”

    C. Who are you agreeing with? I did not say that knowing the the exact date of the Christ’s birth would be ideal. I said,The exact date or ANY DATE doesn’t matter one iota

    D.Since I’m the one missing “your” points, according to what you say, Al, & I believe you, I’m leaving it up to someone else to try to get the point [truth] across. When something as plain as I know how to say it is understood to mean the exact opposite of what I said, it’s time to stop beating my head against a brick wall. I apologize for being a thorn in your side. I did not knowingly want to be.

     
  24. Anon4fun

    December 28, 2012 at 10:59 PM

    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    The same Greek is used in both verses, where bolded. Sodom and Gomorrha are obviously not still burning. They were completely destroyed, which is the point. What is translated as “eternal fire” and similar denotes permanent destruction, not an endless barbecue.

    Isaiah 34:9-10 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

    This passage prophesied the destruction of Edom, which is obviously not still burning, etc. So again we see how the idioms of an ancient culture can lead to misunderstanding when translated to a modern language.

     
  25. Anon4fun

    December 30, 2012 at 3:27 AM

    @Michael “God did not come to save the whole world. He came for His chosen people.”

    Allow me to point out where the Bible contradicts this.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    By the way, this verse also tells us that everlasting life is available only through salvation. The unsaved perish. Therefore, being tortured forever in “hell” is excluded as a possibility.

    Also:

    Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

     
    • Michael

      December 30, 2012 at 8:43 AM

      Anon,

      I posted a video, but I don’t think you watched it. Are you absolutely sure John 3:16 is talking about everyone on earth when it says “whole world”? Is there a world of the ungodly? If their is a world of the ungodly, then there must be a world of the godly, correct? Can the whole world being referred too in John 3:16 be the whole world of YHWH’s chosen people? World is used in many different ways in scripture and needs to be put in its proper context to understand what is being said.

      Let’s look at 1 John 2:2. If you understand propitiation, then you know that Yeshua cannot be the propitiation for the “whole world” (meaning everyone on earth, including the lost). So there must be another meaning for world in 1 John 2:2. In John 1:10 world has three different meanings in one verse. Just because the phrase “whole world” is used does not mean it is speaking of everyone on earth. In the case of 1 John 2:2 the whole world is the world of believers.

      Again I ask you, is John 3:16 talking about everyone on Earth or those that YHWH has chosen to believe?

       
      • Michael

        December 30, 2012 at 8:56 AM

        Al,

        YHWH is Sovereign and He does what He does because it pleases Him to do so. It has nothing to do with you or me or anyone else. He does not need us, we need Him. I am humbled that I am one of His chosen people knowing I had nothing to do with my salvation (see Ephesians 2:8-9). He did not save me based on any merits that I have, but because of His mercy.

        Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”

        If He wants to make us all “robots” (LOL!!) that is His prerogative to do so. I am thankful I am not a robot, but that I am fearfully and wonderfully made by a loving Father who saved me because it pleased Him to do so.

         
  26. Michael

    December 30, 2012 at 11:15 AM

    Matthew 15:24 “But He answered and said, ‘I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'”

    Jeremiah 50:6 “My people have become lost sheep;…

     
  27. Anon4fun

    December 31, 2012 at 12:16 PM

    Michael: “Can the whole world being referred too in John 3:16 be the whole world of YHWH’s chosen people?”

    The word translated as “world” in John 3:16 is “kosmos” (G2889), which means “the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.” Seems to me this is about as inclusive as it gets.

    Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Jesus is referring to his earthly ministry. It is not necessary to get into what “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” meant right now, because the New Covenant later established is clearly universal in scope.

    Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Luke 24:45-47 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

     
    • Michael

      December 31, 2012 at 2:43 PM

      Anon,

      “Kosmos” is used in many different ways in scripture. Look at John 1:10 and tell me how many meanings there are in that one verse for world (kosmos)? No “kosmos” does not always mean “the inhabitants of the earth”.

      2 Peter 2:5 “And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;” Certainly world here does not mean “the inhabitants of the earth”? Same Greek word “kosmos”.

      Let me ask you a question. Are there YHWH’s chosen people (Israel) scattered among the all nations? If there are, and I do believe there are, I am one of them, why do you assume Yeshua, came to save everyone and not just His lost sheep of Israel?

       
    • Michael

      December 31, 2012 at 2:52 PM

      “Jesus is referring to his earthly ministry. It is not necessary to get into what “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” meant right now, because the New Covenant later established is clearly universal in scope.”

      Oh really, perhaps you would like to clarify? And when was the new covenant established?

       
  28. Michael

    December 31, 2012 at 2:48 PM

    Anon,

    In 2 peter 2:5 I need to clarify that I was referring to the “world” of the ungodly. I suggest you watch the video I posted above from John Weaver.

     
  29. Anon4fun

    December 31, 2012 at 4:48 PM

    Michael:

    2 Peter 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly.

    Kosmos is still “the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family,” except here we see it with modifiers. First “ancient,” then “ungodly,” which restrict the word’s meaning. On the other hand, “kosmos” in John 3:16 has no modifiers.

    Or, which definition under Strong’s G2889 would you rather apply here?

    >>Let me ask you a question. Are there YHWH’s chosen people (Israel) scattered among the all nations? If there are, and I do believe there are, I am one of them, why do you assume Yeshua, came to save everyone and not just His lost sheep of Israel?

    I don’t recall the phrase, or even the concept, “God’s chosen people” being employed in the Bible under the New Covenant. Can you cite an instance?

    I already cited where the Christ includes “all nations” in his covenant. What part of this is unclear?

    >>Oh really, perhaps you would like to clarify? And when was the new covenant established?

    Since the New Covenant was established in the blood of Jesus, it started no earlier than the crucifixion. Jesus made the “lost sheep” statement before this, during his ministry.

    The video won’t play in this browser.

     
  30. Michael

    December 31, 2012 at 6:19 PM

    The modifier in John 3:16 is “whoever believes in Him” (NASB). Only those that are chosen and given the gift of faith (Eph 2:8) can believe. It is not talking about the entire world. Yeshua came for the lost sheep of Israel. Context is everything.

    The new covenant is found in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. Verse 10 “”FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.” (NASB) Not all people will have the Law of YHWH written in their hearts. Only the house of Israel, His chosen people, will have the new covenant, those that receive Messiah as Savior. How is that universal? Who is the House of Israel? The lost sheep of Israel Messiah was sent too (Matthew 15:24). He was not sent to save the whole world.

     
    • Michael

      December 31, 2012 at 6:22 PM

      He did not come to save “the inhabitants of the earth” as you suggest.

       
  31. Anon4fun

    December 31, 2012 at 10:10 PM

    Michael:

    >>Only the house of Israel, His chosen people, will have the new covenant, those that receive Messiah as Savior. How is that universal?

    Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    This covenant is universal in that it is universally available. Not everyone is included only because not everyone accepts the offer of salvation.

    >>Who is the House of Israel?”

    Galatians 6:15-16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    In other words, the Christian church is Israel.

    I recommend considering the above passages along with the previously-cited Matthew 28:18-20 and Luke 24:45-47, wherein the risen Jesus tells his disciples to teach and baptize “all nations” into his covenant.

     
    • Michael

      December 31, 2012 at 10:39 PM

      Yes, the Body of Messiah (Church) is Israel. You and I do agree about that.

      I also agree that all that are in Christ are Abraham’s seed.

      You have made my point. Those that have been born into the family of YHWH are Israel. John 1:13 “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Man’s will/flesh has nothing to do with salvation. YHWH does the choosing, not man. This is not about an offer and we choose whether to accept or not. I know what the freedom community teaches. This is not about contracts. When YHWH chooses to save, man cannot resist.

      Thank you for the discussion. I do appreciate it, but I must move on. :-)

       

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