Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

06 Jan

RaptureMany, perhaps most, living Christians believe that we are in or nearing “End Times”.  I certainly do.

Many, perhaps most, modern Christians believe that in the context of “End Times” there’ll be three and a half years of “tribulation” during which the Anti-Christ will torment, torture and kill many, perhaps most, of the people on Earth.

Many, perhaps most, modern Christians believe that just before the Tribulation begins, all true Christians will be “raptured” up into the air to meet with Christ and be thereby spared the torments of the Tribulation.  This is the “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” that is expected to take place before the Tribulation begins.  The rest of the world–who are not true, sincere Christians (despite some of their claims to the contrary)–will be “left behind” to be tormented/tortured/killed by the Anti-Christ.

I’ve never doubted the existence of a coming “rapture,” but I’ve never felt as if I were one of the “good and true Christians” who would be shielded from the Tribulation by the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.  For year, I’ve “felt” (in a way that I attribute to God) that I would be “left behind” to struggle through the 3.5 years of Tribulation but also to survive as a witness to sins committed by the Anti-Christ.  I have more or less expected to grimly survive the Tribulation by eating rats in the rubble of our former civilization.

I’ve envied people who I’ve regarded as good and true Christians who absolutely, confidently, and truly believed they they would be raptured before the Tribulation began.  I’ve wished that I could have that bright, wholesome face that seems to mark all who truly believe that they’ll be raptured and spared the Tribulation.  I’ve been glad that they’d be spared the Tribulation, even though I knew I was not among them.

In my heart, I’ve known, I’ve been sure, that I was not destined for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.  Although I’ve been doing about as well as I could hope to become a true Christian, I knew I was not good enough for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and I was secretly embarrassed by my standing as a “second-class” Christian–one who talked the talk, but wasn’t “good enough” for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

•  Yesterday, a friend of mine sent me a link to a YouTube video that’s almost two hours long.  This video (“After the Tribulation: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Fraud Exposed”) denies that there’ll be any Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I’ve watched the video once.  I intend to listen to it at least once more (and this time I’ll take notes).  It resonates with me as true.  It “resonates” in part because I’m somewhat pleased to think that, under this interpretation, I’m no longer a “second-class” Christian who won’t experience a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.  But it resonates even more because the two young preachers who present this video, do so based on much support from the Bible.  They explain that the earliest presentation for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine was in A.D. 1830.  Thus, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine isn’t truly found in the Bible but is, instead, the relatively recent creation of man.

As I understand the video, the End Times timeline will run something like this:

1.  There will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture.  Christ will not return before the onset of the Tribulation.  No Christian will be spared the Tribulation by means of a “rapture”.

2.  There will be three and a half years of “Tribulation” during which time only the Christians will be subjected to torment, torture or murder.  This Tribulation will not be the pure result of Satan and his demons acting against Christians, but will be largely committed by the people of the world who worship Satan in a one-world religion.  Such people will despise and torment any alternative religion such as Christianity.  Most of the world will take the mark of the beast. Those who take the mark will hate and torment those Christians who do not take the mark.  As Christians, we will be treated like Jews in Nazi Germany.  Our torment may be perpetrated against us by our “Nazi” (“marked”) neighbors at least as much as by our “Nazi” government officials and/or demons.  I infer that the Tribulation is intended to test each Christian’s faith to see who is for real and who is just talk.

3.  The end of the 3.5 years of Tribulation/testing will be marked by: a) the 2nd Coming of Christ; and b) the Post-Tribulation Rapture.  At that time, those Christians whose faith has survived the Tribulation will be raptured up into the air to meet with the Christ and be spared the coming “Wrath of God“.  No Christian will be spared the Tribulation (torment by Satan and earthly neighbors), but all Christians who’ve kept their faith despite the Tribulation will be raptured and spared from the subsequent Wrath of God.

4.  The Wrath of God and of the Christ.  In essence the Tribulation will be a very bad time.  But it will be nothing compared to the Wrath of God executed against those who were not true Christians and who subjected the true Christians to Tribulation.  I presume that those Christians who kept their faith despite the Tribulation will be called upon to witness against those responsible for subjecting Christians to Tribulation.  It should be an horrific moment when those billions who helped cause or supported the Tribulation find themselves exposed to the witness and charges of their victims.  Those remaining on Earth will be astonished to be judged (damned) by our Father YHWH ha Elohiym and condemned.

•  I see nothing man-made that I regard as perfectly true–and that includes this video.  There are elements of this video that I might quibble over.  But I think this video is essentially true.

The video makes or implies a compelling case–supported by many Bible verses–that:

1) There will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture;

2) Most Christians like and are psychologically dependent on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine.  Such Christians refuse to abandon that man-made doctrine because it makes them feel safe from Tribulation;

3) Many (perhaps most) ministers and preachers know that there’ll be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture but refuse to tell that truth for fear of offending and losing their “audience” on Sunday church services; and

4) Those professing Christians who fear the Tribulation and whose current faith depends on belief in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture will be so shocked and dismayed to find that they’ve seeming been “left behind” and are subject to the Tribulation, that they will quite possibly (probably?) lose whatever faith they have during the Tribulation.  Result?  Those who merely “talk the (happy) talk” may wind up being subject to the Wrath of God and damnation.

This strikes me as particularly ironic because, as I’ve already written,  I’ve seen “Christians” whose faces beamed with faith based in part on their belief that they’d be spared from by Pre-Tribulation Rapture from the torment of the Tribulation.  There weren’t a lot of them.  Maybe three or four that I’ve seen who impressed me as “true Christians”.  Now, I’m beginning to wonder if their faith–which I deemed to real–isn’t at least imperfect and perhaps even false.

I don’t know who the real Christians are.  I don’t know how to absolutely identify the “real” Christians.  But if this video is roughly correct, then it may follow that your ability and determination to hold your faith intact, despite 3.5 years of Tribulation may be the key to your salvation.

I’m not suggesting that you can be saved by your “works”.  But I am suggesting that the Tribulation might be seen as the final test of faith.  If your faith survives the test, it will be proven true and you may then be rewarded with salvation.

If that were true, then it follows that a faith in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture may be hazardous to your spiritual health.

Why?  Because, if you’re convinced that, thanks to the Pre-Trib Rapture, you won’t have to face any trouble in the Tribulation, you probably won’t be mentally or even spiritually prepared to deal with trouble if your belief in the Pre-Trib Rapture turns out to be false.

On the other hand, if you abandoned your belief in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture now, and instead began to steel your mind and your faith against the torment you might have to endure during the Tribulation, then you might be better able to endure that torment and prove your faith real and deserving of salvation.

•  The following  video is lengthy (almost two hours) but also important and worth your time and study.




Posted by on January 6, 2013 in Bible, Christianity, End Times, Video


Tags: , ,

122 responses to “Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

  1. KD

    January 6, 2013 at 9:53 PM

    Just a biblical point: We have been living in the “last days” ever since Christ ascended back to heaven. Read Peter’s sermon in Acts chapter 2. He identifies in verses 15-17 what the prophet Joel prophesied in Joel 2:28-32. The kingdom is already in existence. It is the church of Christ (Col. 1:13-18; Rev. 1:6-9).

    • larry

      January 13, 2013 at 9:47 AM

      The speakers in this video are passionate,but make major mistakes. They are not backing up their statements. I recommend The End Times in Chronological Order by Ron Roads. Very clear and thorough.

      • Cathy McMahan

        January 19, 2013 at 1:52 PM

        they are backing up their statements. I followed them through the scriptures. I researched this years ago using just the Bible.

  2. ciarlidog

    January 6, 2013 at 9:58 PM

    Most important thing to know Alfred, is that If there is an Anti Christ, and he has plans to torture you, or anyone else, Christian or otherwise, he will be the first guy to get to meet his gods or satans, whichever he has, because I will hunt him down as long as there is breath in my soul (or unless they declare the Pre-Tribulation a gun-free zone, and then I will just……no, I am going to hunt him down anyway. NO MAN has the right to hurt another who bears him no harm, no matter their flavors, I have lost my tolerance for the Anti-Christs and his minions. Woe to those who undertake to hurt innocents.

    As always, thank you for your insightful posts! Love the “Person” in the HOV lane. Like you say, a lot of implications no matter which way it goes. Will be interesting to watch.

  3. Lori Fields

    January 6, 2013 at 10:50 PM

    Christ said if we suffer for his sake we should rejoice. I don’t believe in a “pre-trib” rapture. If Christ said we would NOT be called to suffer than Jesus will have to apologize to the Christians in the Middle East, China etc that are being beheaded, tortured and killed.

  4. Anon4fun

    January 6, 2013 at 11:46 PM

    >>Many, perhaps most, living Christians believe that we are in or nearing “End Times”.

    I, for one, am less concerned with what most Christians believe than what the word of God says. Can anyone make a case from the actual Bible to the effect that the “end times” are now or in the near future? If not, where does this belief come from?

    If by these “end times” you mean what scriptures calls the last days, the actual Bible contradicts you. For example, the author of Acts claimed the last days were in his own time, i.e. the first century AD.

    Acts 2:14-21 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Joel 2:28-32 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

    The author of the Hebrews also considered himself to be living in the last days, i.e. the first century AD.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.

    What scriptural evidence is there to put against these and other apparently straightforward timing statements? Is there such evidence?

    • KD

      January 7, 2013 at 12:00 AM


  5. Lori Fields

    January 7, 2013 at 12:02 AM

    The rapture question answered by Robert Van Kampen, the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal. Both good books that go over scriptural basis for a post-trib rapture.

  6. SJRR

    January 7, 2013 at 5:33 AM

    It’s now A.D. 2013. The human race really needs to grow out of these supernatural beliefs. We may be approaching the ‘end times’ but stop insulting your beautifully evolved and complex thinking brain in believing there is a man in the sky who will come and save you. Humankind needs to severe the shackles of this superstitious Iron Age nonsense that restricts the majority from freely thinking and reasoning. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

  7. Michael

    January 7, 2013 at 7:44 AM

    I certainly do NOT subscribe to a “pre-trib” rapture of the Church. One of the errors of this video that I noticed right from the start is, these preachers haven’t a clue as to who Israel is. First off, Isarael is not the “Jews”. It is true that Israel are the elect. The elect are all those chosen by God to be His people (See Jeremiah 31), that have His Law written upon their hearts. His Law is written upon your heart when His Holy Spirit indwells you once you have received Messiah as your Savior. Once you have done this, you are a member of the House of Israel. See the discussion in the thread called “Merry Christmas!”

    I do believe, as the video teaches, and is supported with scripture, that the “rapture” will occur just before the wrath of YHWH is poured out on mankind at the end of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation. Nowhere does scripture teach a “pre-trib rapture” of the church. Many so-called professed believers are being deceived into being misled. Are these professed believers truly of the elect/Israel? This only YHWH knows as Judge, but 2 Thessalonians 2:11 “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,” Why are people deluded to believe what is false? 2 Thessalonians 2:10 “and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.”

    If those that claim to be believers do not do as the Bereans did in Acts 17:11 searching the scriptures daily to see if what they hear is the truth, they will be no better off that those false prophets that are misleading them,

  8. Huey Campbell

    January 7, 2013 at 8:15 AM

    I, and many other people, feel like we are nearing momentous change ( the end of the world). There is no pretrib rapture. When it happens the good people left alive will be translated into immortality. The good dead people will be resurrected into immortality.

    The bad living people will be destroyed, “by the brightness of his coming”, i.e.spontaneous human combustion. The bad dead people will remain in their graves to await the second resurrection [but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years are finished] There is no one left alive on the earth.

    And when the thousand years are finished, the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, the second resurrection occurs. All who have ever lived are now alive. Every knee bows. every tongue confesses YHWH is altogether good, just, and worthy.

    Bad is declared over, done with, finished. There is no more controversy. We know good and have chosen. Sin will not rise a second time.

    Alfred…you owe a debt to your friend. He told you the truth. And, knowing you, you are also grateful to God because you recognized it

    • Michael

      January 7, 2013 at 9:55 AM

      Huey Campbell,

      “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; …”

      What do you mean by good people? Mark 10:18 “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.'”

      • Huey Campbell

        January 7, 2013 at 6:06 PM

        Good people are those involved in the first resurrection.
        Bad people are those in the second resurrection

      • Michael

        January 8, 2013 at 10:42 AM

        I contend none of them are good. The only reason any of us are saved is because of YHWH’s mercy (Titus 3:5). That is why Messiah was sent to us. None of us are deserving of His love, but, I for one, am extremely humbled that He chose me (Eph 1:4) to spend an eternity with Him because it pleased Him to do so. Had nothing to do with me at all. He is the Sovereign and needs nothing from me. You must think it had something to do with those “good” people in the first resurrection; the reason they are there?

      • KD

        January 8, 2013 at 11:22 AM

        But if notice in the context of Eph. 1:4, all spiritual blessings are “in Christ” (v. 3). Galatians 3:27 & Colossians 2:11-12 tells how one gets into Christ.

      • Huey Campbell

        January 8, 2013 at 6:53 PM

        They were crying, None was worthy to open the seals. They looked around and saw a bloody lamb and cried, “Worthy is the lamb!” The “lamb” decides who is worthy of the first resurrection, (the good) not me -nor- any other. He earned it with the blood from his veins. -If- he decides you are worthy brother, what basis do I have to argue?

      • Michael

        January 8, 2013 at 8:48 PM


        It has nothing to do with me being worthy. He did not choose me because I am worthy. I cannot work my way into His good graces (Ephesians 2:8-9). He chose me because it pleased Him to do so from before the foundation of the world.


        Deuteronomy 7:6 “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.” (NASB)

        And how does Galatians 3:27 & Colossians 2:11-12 change the fact that He chooses and not the other way around?

  9. Michael

    January 7, 2013 at 9:49 AM

    “I don’t know who the real Christians are. I don’t know how to absolutely identify the “real” Christians. But if this video is roughly correct, then it may follow that your ability and determination to hold your faith intact, despite 3.5 years of Tribulation may be the key to your salvation.”


    What we are called to be is fruit inspectors. Matthew 7:16 “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” The only one that I know for sure is a true believer is myself. 1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.” NASB Anyone that says He loves YHWH, and does not keep His commandments, his salvation is suspect. Now, I did not say, is not saved, only this his salvation is suspect.

  10. Peter

    January 7, 2013 at 11:01 AM

    If you read the scriptures that “they” use to justify their rapture teaching, know this: that the apostle was teaching the Thessalonians about the resurrection of the dead and where the dead are, and that when Christ returns he would raise the dead first-then those who were alive at that point would be changed or “caught up to be with The Lord in the air” being caught up in the air is just metaphorical nobody is going to be flying off the planet like they would have you believe. I find people who believe they are worthy of being raptured are among the most presumptuous.
    To take the teaching on the resurrection and split it up into a ridiculous event such as a pretribulation “rapture” is certainly the work of those men who we are warned about in the epistles that “they would creep in” teaching things they ought not.

  11. Peter

    January 7, 2013 at 11:13 AM

    Ok. Lets talk about the tribulation. I remember hearing someone say ” if my neighbor loses his job, we’re in a recession, if I lose my job, we’re in a depression”
    In other words, who is to say we’re not already in the tribulation, do you think all the Christians (80,000,000 of them) in Russia who were massacred under the Bolshevics and communists believed they were in the end times or the tribulation? Or because it just hasn’t happened here (yet) that the tribulation period hasn’t begun?

    • KD

      January 7, 2013 at 11:29 AM

      The focus of the book of Revelation had to do with those first century Christians who were under extreme persecution from the likes of Nero, Domitian, etc. (depending on your view of when the book was written). Verse one in ch.1 tells us two things: 1. The book is highly symbolical (“signified”), as is most apocalyptic/prophetic biblical literature. 2. The message of the book, as is all of the other NT books, written to a specific people (seven congregations in Asia), for a specific time (primarily that generation).
      Christ’s kingdom already exists. It is the church of Jesus Christ (Colossians 1). Even the writer of Revelation confirms that he was already in the kingdom (1:9). There are numerous scriptures throughout the epistles that tell us that this entire age is an age of great tribulation for the Christian. The key is to not focus on the physical, political, etc., trials that we encounter. That is the msg of Revelation and all other NT books.

    • KD

      January 7, 2013 at 12:00 PM

      Another thing, the term “antichrist” only appears in first and second John. I’m it’s usage it never refers to a specific entity. It is specified as a general disposition of character (1 Jn 2:18, 22; 2:22; 4:3; 2 Jn 7). In the context of those verses it generally referred to Judaizing teachers (those that taught that the OT law was still in effect).

      • Yartap

        January 7, 2013 at 1:58 PM


        Your right about the term: “antichrist” as used in John. 1st John 2:18 said that there are “many” antichrist. Alfred has made the same mistake that many commit by calling Revelation’s “false profit” as the so called “antichrist.” It is true that the false profit is an antichrist, but the linking the two together removes the fact that “there are many” of the spirit of the antichrist.


        My brother, may I point out to you that you are worthy of Christ’s grace and gift given to you, me and others. He gave it to you freely. Christ thought and thinks you are worthy. Is His gift of salvation to each of us not worth anything? I believe that His gift of salvation to each of us is the greatest gift ever given to anybody. If one wants to show Christ that His gift is not worth anything, then just claim that Christ made a mistake about one’s self of worth. Just question Christ gift to you. What we can do is show to Him that His gift is of great value by accepting it. This is what He wants from you, Alfred. He has judge that you are worthy! Who are you to say that you are not a first class Christian. His death, burial and resurrection purified and cleansed you. To all – accept it! Claim it!

  12. Vindex

    January 7, 2013 at 11:48 AM

    The idea of a rapture (non Biblical) and a single person being the antichrist (not Biblical) came from the 16th century Jesuits as a counter to the Protestant Reformation interpretation of “the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist.” (Martin Luther) See Francisco Ribera – , Futurism –

  13. Anon4fun

    January 7, 2013 at 1:02 PM

    >>The focus of the book of Revelation had to do with those first century Christians who were under extreme persecution from the likes of Nero, Domitian, etc. (depending on your view of when the book was written).<<

    Thanks for taking the time to discover what the Bible actually says, KD, rather than relying on the traditions of men which make the word of God of none effect. The text itself shows Revelation was written during the reign of Nero, or at least that is when its prophesies were given to the author.

    Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    1. Julius
    2. Augustus
    3. Tiberius
    4. Caligula
    5. Claudius
    6. Nero (54 AD to 68 AD)
    7. Galba, who reigned for “a short space” (7 months, until January of 69 AD)

    The sequence of kings could only be Roman, because the time frame is before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

    Revelation 11:1-2 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    As you mentioned, the book describes events in the near future as of that time in the first century AD.

    Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

    Revelation 22:6-10 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

    Which is not to say that all the book’s prophesies were fulfilled then. There is the interval of “a thousand years” to consider, and then the lake of fire. This is not a literal 1,000 years, by the way. That culture used “a thousand years” to mean an undefined very long time. This was a common way for them to express themselves.

    • KD

      January 7, 2013 at 1:18 PM

      I believe there is symbolism in the numbers. For instance, “ten” is a number that represents completeness or perfection. The same with thousand. My own view is that the thousand year reign of Christ is the age we are living in. Again, John identifies himself as being in the kingdom (1:9). The apostle Paul told the church at Colossae that they had been “transferred” (ESV, past tense) into the kingdom of Christ (Col. 1:13). Christ already king and occupies David’s throne (symbol of authority, “Lord” means King, Acts 2).

  14. NDT

    January 7, 2013 at 3:42 PM

    “This Tribulation will not be the pure result of Satan and his demons acting against Christians, but will be largely committed by the people of the world who worship Satan in a one-world religion.”

    The Ecumenical Catholic Church confesses that Jesus Christ sought His Church to be one Body which unites all of humanity. To this end, the Ecumenical Catholic Church (a) maintains its membership open to all persons who are in agreement with its doctrinal position and desire to be members and (b) maintains to its best ability an active role in the ecumenical movement, keeping in touch with the remainder of the Church and striving toward the visible unity thereof.

    Catholic (katholika) means universal.
    Satan means adversary. (2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1)
    People are not persons: (Deuteronomy 10:17)
    Cicero’s humans were a product of Rome.

    • KD

      January 7, 2013 at 3:46 PM

      Catholicism is result of apostasy. The end result of when civil govt and religion mix.

  15. havrepastor

    January 7, 2013 at 7:34 PM

    I am a studied, believer in a pre-trib Rapture. Many other views are out there. It matters NOT what you or anyone else believes concerning the Rapture but here is the question: IF YOU die today and knock on the door of Heaven and THE LORD asks “why should I let you in?” What would be your reply? Are you a “born-again” believer? OR something else?

    • KD

      January 7, 2013 at 8:38 PM

      Just a question: define “born again”

      • havrepastor

        January 7, 2013 at 11:05 PM

        John chapter 3

      • KD

        January 7, 2013 at 11:21 PM

        I only ask because many forget about the “water and the Spirit” part (cf. Matt. 28:18-19; Mk 16:15-16, etc).

    • deb

      January 7, 2013 at 9:46 PM

      It matters.

      Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. Ezekiel 3

      Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. Acts 20:26-31

      • havrepastor

        January 7, 2013 at 11:10 PM

        Yes, all scripture matters: however, a mistake in ones interpretation of the Rapture WILL NOT exclude them from Heaven. Here is what the passage in Acts says;
        Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

        For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

        Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

        For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

        Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

        Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

      • deb

        January 11, 2013 at 4:28 AM

        havrepastor January 7, 2013 at 11:10 PM
        @Yes, all scripture matters: however, a mistake in ones interpretation of the Rapture WILL NOT exclude them from Heaven….

        a mistake like that can mean the great apostasy–“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36

      • havrepastor

        January 11, 2013 at 12:41 PM

        Ever consider YOU are wrong?

      • deb

        January 11, 2013 at 1:04 PM

        @Ever consider YOU are wrong?

        I once was wrong like you, but I thank God for His living Word sharper than a two edged sword that was able to struck down the imaginary talking pul-pits.:-)

      • havrepastor

        January 11, 2013 at 3:58 PM

        Funny I have known quite a few who make the same claim. Does not make you any more correct does it? By the way what denomination church do you attend? Or do you not attend?

      • deb

        January 11, 2013 at 4:35 PM

        I don’t make any claims–Scripture does.

        Sorry, I don’t belong to any :-)

      • havrepastor

        January 11, 2013 at 7:19 PM

        SCRIPTURE DOES?? So you are saying you are right?? YOU are hilarious! What you need Ms. Deb is to get in a good Bible believing church under a MAN of GOD and sit under the authority GOD has put over you in the local church and learn a few things about the Bible.

      • KD

        January 11, 2013 at 7:25 PM

        I’m still waiting for someone to show me the term “rapture” in the Bible

      • havrepastor

        January 11, 2013 at 7:32 PM

        The word “Bible” is not in the Bible! The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible……?????It is not in there?

      • KD

        January 12, 2013 at 8:00 AM

        Correct. That is why I only use the term “bible” when speaking in general terms. “Trinity” and “rapture” are terms pulled out of the imaginations of men. “Godhead,” on the other hand, is. “Rapture” implies to something more than resurrection.

      • deb

        January 12, 2013 at 12:43 PM

        You presume to know what I need by exalting yourself in the position of God. Are you?

        Can you tell me, which of the tentacles of the Laodicean church you would recommend?

      • havrepastor

        January 12, 2013 at 7:59 PM

        Don’t think you would take my recommendation seriously however Hebrews 10:25 is still in the Bible? (Although MANY think they are above that or think they have arrived to a superior level?)

      • Michael

        January 12, 2013 at 9:01 PM


        What has Hebrews 10:25 got to do with the “local church”? If any church is incorporated with the “STATE” it has yoked with unbelievers and no believer should enter therein.

        1 Corinthians 6:14 “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

        15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

        16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

        17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

        18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.”

        The incorporated “church” has made the STATE its master and is no longer under the lordship of Messiah, but the STATE instead. They have become businesses with a set of by-laws that have become more important that the Word of YHWH. They are apostate.

        Unfortunately, not many comprehend Romans 13 either:

        I do not attend any incorporated churches, because NONE are teaching truth of the Word of YHWH.

      • deb

        January 12, 2013 at 9:38 PM

        Thanks Michael, my sentiments exactly. The beauty of ‘where two or three are gathered in His name…’ And I also agree about the Sabbath.

      • havrepastor

        January 12, 2013 at 10:28 PM

        William Miller and Ms. White deceived many! I pray you folks are saved “born-again” and ready to go to Heaven.

      • deb

        January 12, 2013 at 10:53 PM

        What do you understand “born again” to mean? And are you sure the final destination of every believer is Heaven? Do we need resurrected bodies in heaven?

      • Michael

        January 12, 2013 at 9:06 PM

        BTW, I assemble with believers every Sabbath, not on SUNday. Scripture says to not forsake the assembling together. It says nothing about “the local church”, which is a man made term.

      • Michael

        January 13, 2013 at 8:04 AM


        John 1:12-13 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (KJV)

        John 3:3, 6 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.(NASB)

        How do we know we love YHWH?

        John 14:15 “If you love Me you will keep My commandments” (NASB)
        1 john 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

        Unfortunately, there are some that claim to be born again who believe the law was done away, and the 4th commandment is no longer applicable.

        Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” (NASB)

        His Law is immutable, unchanging. Malachi 3:6 “For I am the LORD, I change not;…” (KJV)

        I keep the Sabbath and do my best to keep all of His Law. Why? Because He says if I love Him I will keep His commandments. This is also how I know I am one of His chosen people. If someone says to me they are born again but do not keep His commandments, what are they saying about their love of YHWH? Are they producing good or bad fruit?

    • SweaterCups40

      February 15, 2013 at 3:37 AM

      Are you a hardshell Baptist by chance? Where is a “good Bible Believing” Church?

      • KD

        February 15, 2013 at 4:45 AM

        It ain’t the Baptists

  16. havrepastor

    January 7, 2013 at 7:40 PM

    I would recommend that one GET OUT of this book and GET IN “THE BOOK”

  17. Timmy

    January 7, 2013 at 9:08 PM

    Even a cursory but careful review of the relevant scriptures make abundantly clear that there is NO such thing in the Bible as a “pre-tribulation” rapture, in the sense that these people think of it. The point of the book of Revelation, and indeed the pattern of the entire Bible, is how God brings His people THROUGH these challenging events. That is the witness. Interestingly, the modern pre trib movement finds its roots mainly in the Scofield “Bible”, a Zionist piece of propoganda. (dispensational claptrap; warped cross referencing, etc.)

    The pre trib belief is a massive deception which will leave all these “beaming” believers totally unprepared for the things that are coming on the earth.

    • havrepastor

      January 7, 2013 at 11:13 PM

      Your interpreation of the events surrounding the Rapture are YOUR OPINION. They sound real good EVEN IF YOU ARE WRONG! (I am sure you feel the same about my view)

      • Michael

        January 8, 2013 at 6:53 AM

        Scripture is not opinion, it is truth. There is no support for a “pre-trib” rapture anywhere in scripture. Most use 1 Thessalonians 4 as evidence of a “pre-trib rapture” when in fact this is speaking of the second coming, and not a “pre-trib rapture” at all. If you know anything at all about the feasts, you will know that the trump that is sounded will be at the feast of trumpets at the 2nd coming of Messiah.

      • havrepastor

        January 8, 2013 at 8:14 AM

        Again, and lastly that sounds real good. I will be with THE LORD between chapter 4 and chapter 19 of Revelation. You can believe anything you want? AND you can APPEAR to justify YOURSELF in your reasoning EVEN if you are wrong. And lastly YOU are giving your belief on a Biblical issue WHICH is NO more valid than any other man. Maybe you will feel better to get in one more post on this to “feel” you have won or to believe you have appeared to win before those whom post and read here, but you deceive no one but yourself.

      • Michael

        January 8, 2013 at 11:36 AM

        That’s alright. I still love you anyway.

  18. havrepastor

    January 7, 2013 at 11:36 PM

    Funny thing? I as a “born again” Bible believer am told in Scripture to look for “the glorious appearing”

    Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.Titus 2:12-14 ……DOES NOT APPEAR I am looking for the time of Jacob’s troubles?

  19. rl

    January 7, 2013 at 11:54 PM

    I would recommend the website Jack Kelly is a respected Bible Scholar that has scripture to support the pre-trib rapture. You have to understand that our salvation is NOT determined by how good you are or the works you do. You are saved by grace, not of works it is a gift of God, lest anyone boast. Christ paid the penalty for every sin. If his blood didn’t cover every sin then his grace would not been sufficient to save mankind. The rapture of the church (the bride of Christ) has to happen for the wedding feast to happen during the tribulation period. The Church is no longer mentioned in the book of Rev. after chapter 4 when John is translated into the third heaven for his vision. The video is false doctrine. Everything after the 4th chapter relates to Israel, Daniels 70th week. Daniel chapter 9. But whether or not the rapture happens and I believe it will. Call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved. There is one name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12 Either you believe in Christ or you don’t. Either God has the ability to compile and reveal his truth in the Bible or he doesn’t. Don’t believe these doubters they are empty vessels.

    • KD

      January 8, 2013 at 12:00 AM

      Define “call upon,” biblically.

    • Michael

      January 8, 2013 at 11:18 AM

      I went to and read what was said about Matthew 24:40-41. If you read the passage it refers to what happened in Noah’s day when the flood came. Matthew 24:38-39 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away ; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

      Who was taken a away? Was it Noah and his family? Or was it those YHWH destroyed, taken way by the flood? This is critical to understand what is being taught by the passage.

      I do not believe those that are taken are those that are saved, but those that are destroyed.

      • Timmy

        January 8, 2013 at 4:23 PM

        Well said Michael. Compare also Luke 18. (Hence Jesus comment about dead bodies.) The ones ‘taken’ are always the wicked/unbelievers. The ones left, the Faithful. Like the flood, Just so it will be in the end…

      • Huey Campbell

        January 8, 2013 at 6:40 PM


    • Timmy

      January 8, 2013 at 4:21 PM

      Wow… umm, we are not discussing Faith and salvation directly, we’re discussing the pre trib Rapture theory. Israel in Revelation is the Church of Jesus Christ’s people… literal Israel rejected Christ and was thus allowed to be smashed by Rome and dispersed. They hate him to this day.

      Revelation is apocalyptic prophecy, and as such, A: is NOT in chronological sequence and B: is HIGHLY symbolic (though of course representing events which will be all too real.) His great and glorious return will be about the most UN secret event in the history of this world. “Every eye will see Him…”, etc. There are not two second comings, one private and one public.

      The whole overall story in Revelation is about His people who: overcome the Beast; won’t worship His image, even at the threat of death, have to be supernaturally protected by God from the terrible things that come on the earth, etc. etc. How anyone could miss this shows me that they are listening to men/preachers/book/tv and not carefully and prayerfully studying the Book of Revelation itself. Even a casual read will show anyone with an open mind that His people go THROUGH the events; they are not magically taken FROM them before they happen. Take another look. Be prepared.

      • Michael

        January 8, 2013 at 4:33 PM


        Amen brother!

  20. Earl-inOregon

    January 8, 2013 at 2:00 PM

    86% of Christians are Not going to be raptured,
    in Revelation 1-3 there are 7 churches.

    Only 1 of those churches are told,
    will not go thru the ” hour of trial”
    that means, the other churches Do go thru, the “Hour of Trial”.

    Rev. 3:10
    Because you have kept My command to persevere,
    I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world,
    to test those who dwell on the earth.

    7 divided into 100% = 14.2
    that means 86% of Christians are Not going to be raptured.

    Instead of trying to be Raptured,
    Ask God to leave you behind,
    to help people become Saved.

    Ask people

    “which church do you go to?
    “How long has it been since you read the Bible?”
    Are you Saved?

    Who in your Family, is not Saved?
    What about your friends?

    Instead of trying to be Raptured,
    Ask God to leave you behind,
    to help people become Saved.

    In this world, Everyone DIES.
    Get over that Fact.

    Help people become Saved,
    so that when you die,
    you die a Hero.

    A Biblical Hero.

    Praise God!

    He has made a way for You to become a Biblical Hero.
    Help people become Saved.

    Can you Talk?
    Do you Read the Bible?

    You are Fully equipped to become a Biblical Hero!

    Help people become Saved.
    It is a Great work.


    • KD

      January 8, 2013 at 3:12 PM

      Show me book, chapter, and verse where I can find “rapture.”

  21. Earl -inOregon

    January 8, 2013 at 6:16 PM

    Revelation is Not symbolic


    The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him
    to Show his servants what Must soon Take Place.

    Rev 1:3
    3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy,
    and Keep those things which are written in it;… .

    Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are,
    and the things which Will Take Place after this.

    • KD

      January 8, 2013 at 6:47 PM

      The Greek word for “signified” in verse 1 means “to show by signs.” Just another way of saying that it is symbolical, as is all apocalyptic biblical literature.
      Why is that some can look at things such as baptism, etc. throughout the bible in non prophetic text and see symbolism but when they come to a book of prophecy, in which its writing style is symbolical, they see literal?
      Hermeneutics is a wonderful thing.

      • Timmy

        January 8, 2013 at 8:03 PM

        Thank you KD. Well stated.

    • KD

      January 9, 2013 at 8:07 AM

      The language therein is.

  22. Earl -inOregon

    January 8, 2013 at 6:19 PM

    Rapture thinking makes Cowards of men.

    • Huey Campbell

      January 8, 2013 at 6:57 PM


      • havrepastor

        January 8, 2013 at 7:56 PM

        Correct for those whom do not agree with you? Yo can say AMEN now!

      • havrepastor

        January 8, 2013 at 8:02 PM

        Here is my thought on “cowardice” there Huey, why do you not get on a blog which is advocating a “pre-trib” rapture INSTEAD of being over here where you are in a majority being behind this article which is against it, and spue your opinion out there? Could it be cowardice? Could it be that you won’t feel as supreme there? PROBABLY!

    • havrepastor

      January 8, 2013 at 7:54 PM

      So… are saying that a man whom believes in the rapture would tend to be a coward? Got any Scripture on that sir? What a ridiculous analogy!

      • Huey Campbell

        January 8, 2013 at 8:07 PM

        Re-posted for you pastor Does this sound like pre-trib to you?

        Huey Campbell

        January 7, 2013 at 8:15 AM

        I, and many other people, feel like we are nearing momentous change ( the end of the world). There is no pretrib rapture. When it happens the good people left alive will be translated into immortality. The good dead people will be resurrected into immortality.

        The bad living people will be destroyed, “by the brightness of his coming”, i.e.spontaneous human combustion. The bad dead people will remain in their graves to await the second resurrection [but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years are finished] There is no one left alive on the earth.

        And when the thousand years are finished, the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, the second resurrection occurs. All who have ever lived are now alive. Every knee bows. every tongue confesses YHWH is altogether good, just, and worthy.

        Bad is declared over, done with, finished. There is no more controversy. We know good and have chosen. Sin will not rise a second time.

        Alfred…you owe a debt to your friend. He told you the truth. And, knowing you, you are also grateful to God because you recognized it

    • Michael

      January 8, 2013 at 10:00 PM

      Well, I would not want to go through the great tribulation if I did not have too. It would be nice to have Messiah take me up before the fit hits the shan. Frankly, I may not make it to the great tribulation if things keep going the way they are. Of course that is left for my heavenly Father to decide, but I am in declining health. I am grateful for each moment I have, for each moment, and each breath, everything I have has been gifted to me from a loving Creator.

  23. Earl -inOregon

    January 8, 2013 at 7:16 PM

    Signified and Symbolic are Different words.
    Different words have Different meanings.

    • KD

      January 8, 2013 at 7:22 PM

      The GREEK word means “shown by signs.”

      • KD

        January 8, 2013 at 7:26 PM

        “…and symbols”

  24. havrepastor

    January 8, 2013 at 8:03 PM


    • Michael

      January 8, 2013 at 8:52 PM

      Your pride is showing. Why do you call people of faith cowards for voicing what they believe? Are you so insecure that you attack people? Why not show a little love and humility?

  25. Cody

    January 10, 2013 at 10:56 PM

    I can’t say you can prove anything with scripture. However, abusers of the scripture have made a lot of money trying to sell and escape hatch that does not exist. Everything I’ve seen in the scripture indicates that the sincere believer will be persecuted because, he believes. We ain’t gettin’ out before we have to pass throught the valley of death. Until we get there, see what happens when you tell the “truth” to someone who hates it.

  26. Ayelyah

    January 11, 2013 at 12:15 AM

    Jesus’s message is as pure and uncomplicated “the Kingdom of God is within you”…. the keys

  27. Ayelyah

    January 11, 2013 at 12:24 AM

    Turn back the clock to 325AD the official birth of Constantine’s “Christianity” at the Council of Nicea along with the adoption of the Nicean Creed 4th century(doctrine of the Trinity) by order of Constantine…. and the adulterous relationship of church and state begins. The “church” became mediator between God and men and the 66 “books” Constantine agreed to became the Holy Bible as we know it. All other scrolls, holy writings, gospel accounts were destroyed and burned along with anyone who was found hiding them and the wealth poured into the “church” in a deal that was sealed and enforced by the state. Any deviation of official “church” doctrine was heresy and death was by torture.
    The Greek word for church is “ekklesia” meaning ‘that which is called out’ the only word for church in the Bible. Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God, take away the false doctrine of the Trinity and is there anything that divides footstep followers of Jesus Christ from embracing our muslim brothers and sisters who love and respect Jesus Christ and who also look to His return. It is time to rip the veil of lies. Whether it be Jesus Christ or Prophet Mohammed who takes your hand and leads you to Almighty God our creator, we all are made in His image.
    Anyone who can look at the Vatican and believe that it is a representation of God on earth is delusional. The adulterous relationship between church and state is seen for what it is, high profit, high organized crime and high time all footstep followers of Jesus Christ wake up and separate from false doctrines of rapture, trinity, Constantines Christmas ( birth of Nimrod, Saturnalia) and all the rest that they came up with in their Council of Nicea. One thing you can be sure of , we do NOT have it all , only what they allowed.
    The keys of the kingdom were never given to Peter. Jesus entrusted the keys to the woman whom he loved, whose name was defamed mercilously by the “church”. The keys of the kingdom are not found within the 4 walls of a church . God does not dwell in handmade temples, the keys are free, received free…and given free… and the good news is… don’t have to be a Constantinian “Christian” to receive them. Jesus’s message is as pure and uncomplicated “the Kingdom of God is within you”. He is the first and He shows us “the way” as we sit in the quiet place with Him
    In case you are missing it, we are already well into the great tribulation. All racial, religious and national barriers are down. We are not in a war against flesh and blood and humanity is uniting as evil manifest through the Zionist New World Order moves into its final stages. Zionist Israel IS the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not, in the holy place. The lines are drawn in the sand and the time left is reduced. Standing with Zionist Israel is bowing your knee to Baal and if you have been duped to believe otherwise by the likes of John Hagee and CUFI , all footstep followers of Jesus Christ heed this warning…separate now

    • Huey Campbell

      January 11, 2013 at 6:37 AM

      I like what you said. There is the sense of “truth” in it

  28. deb

    January 11, 2013 at 4:11 AM

    @ Whether it be Jesus Christ or Prophet Mohammed who takes your hand and leads you to Almighty God our creator, we all are made in His image.

    Before Abraham was “I AM”=Yeshua aka Jesus to the mob

    “I AM that I AM” Yahweh aka God to Moses

    The I AM that I AM talking to Moses and the I AM talking to the mob in the garden of Gethsemane before HIS sacrificial death=Jehovah/God aka Yeshua/Jesus.

    Why would anyone bring an impostor like mohammed invented by the catholic church into the equation?? And not everyone is made in HIS image.

    • Ayelyah

      January 11, 2013 at 5:44 AM

      His image meaning Almighty God our creators image, I did not say the image of the Prophet Mohammed nor the image of Jesus Christ. Open your eyes of understanding

      • Michael

        January 11, 2013 at 8:57 AM

        John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

        John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

        There is no question Yeshua is God incarnate:

    • deb

      January 11, 2013 at 10:57 AM

      Amen, Michael

      Jesus Christ the Messiah–the Way the Truth and the Life–God incarnate–King of kings and Lord of lords. And not everyone is created in HIS image.

      Please don’t put mohammed and Yeshua the Messiah the King of kings and Lord of lords in the the same sentence, let alone make him coequal with Yeshua.

    • Timmy

      January 13, 2013 at 9:26 AM

      I believe every human is necessarily a descendant of Adam and Eve; who were made in the image of God. As each thing reproduces “after its kind”, all humans are made in the image of God. At least in some aspects. There is a whole separate issue of being fallen vs. having life (“born again”) in the spiritual realm. But we should definitely offer everyone basic respect, regardless of who or what they are. As Jesus did and does and would.

  29. Michael

    January 12, 2013 at 11:22 AM

    I totally agree with the following:

    “What is meant when it says man is made in the image of God?
    The term “image of God” occurs three times in the Bible. In Genesis 1:26-27 and 9:6, we find out that man is created in the image of God. In 2 Cor. 4:4 we see the phrase used in reference to Jesus who is the “image of God.” There is no exact understanding of what the phrase means, but we can generalize. It would seem that the first two verses refer to God’s character and attributes that are reflected in people. The term cannot be a reference to a physical appearance of God since Jesus says in John 4:24 that God is Spirit, and in Luke 24:39 Spirit does not have flesh and bones. Therefore, we can conclude that the image of God deals with humanity’s reflection of God in such things as compassion, rationality, love, hatred, fellowship, etc. God exhibits all of these characteristics, as do people.

    As a side note, in 1 Cor. 11:7 man is considered the image and glory of God and the woman is the glory of man. But, we know from Genesis 1:27 that both male and female are created in the image of God.

    The third verse, 2 Cor. 4:4, is specifically in reference to Christ. It says, “in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” We know that Jesus was in the likeness of God (Phil. 2:5-8) and is the exact presentation of the nature of the Father (Heb. 1:3). Therefore, we can understand why Paul says that Christ is the image of God. But Jesus is a perfect image of God, where we are not. Jesus never sinned (1 Peter 2:22) and always did the will of the Father (John 6:37-40).

    There are different opinions among Christians as to exactly what the image of God is, and to what extent it was affected by the sin of Adam. Undoubtedly, the image of God continued after the fall (Genesis 9:6), which states that whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed because he was made in the image of God.

    Finally, because everyone is made in the image of God, then everyone should be treated with proper respect and honor because they reflect God. Of course, we know that many people are full of evil and hatred and we must guard ourselves and others against them. Still, we are to treat others with respect.”

  30. deb

    January 12, 2013 at 12:24 PM

    @Finally, because everyone is made in the image of God…

    Was Cain created in the image of God? What about the Pharisees Jesus addresses in John 8?

    • Michael

      January 12, 2013 at 1:00 PM

      Yes, there is evil in the world. Genesis 6:5 “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

      He says man was made in His image. Can you show me anywhere it states Cain was not made in His image? How about Adam? Who am I to call YHWH a liar?

      When he said, in Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth’”, did he qualify that those made in His image are only believers in Messiah?

      John 8 does not state anywhere that the Pharisees are any different than any other sinner, since all men are sinners. I am a sinner and fall short of the glory of YHWH like all do (see Romans 3:23). The difference is, I have been saved by grace.

      Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

      Being made in the image of YHWH has nothing to do with how good we are. According to scripture the article I posted is accurate..

      • deb

        January 12, 2013 at 10:16 PM

        @Yes, there is evil in the world. Yes Cain was created in the image of God, or yes there is evil in the world?

        Adam, yes, was created in the image of God. His progeny created in Adam’s image after the fall. Genesis 5:3

        If Cain was created in the image of God or Adam for that matter, why is he not in the genealogy of Adam? If Cain was fathered by Satan then he was not created in the image of God. And if his progeny was created in his own likeness, then they can not be created in the image of God.

        The seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman–enmity?

      • deb

        January 12, 2013 at 10:30 PM

        P.S. If this is true then not everyone is created in God’s image which would explain predestination, being chosen in the beloved–but also personally accepting the gift of God, the sacrifice of the second Adam.

    • Timmy

      January 15, 2013 at 7:37 PM

      God blessed Cain with merciful protection, that “no one would slay him…” Grace. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, yes, but that is mercy that they might repent. They chose not to. But he was showing his love and mercy to them by reproving them in hopes of saving some.

      • Huey Campbell

        January 15, 2013 at 8:09 PM

        Does the King James word “Woe” equate with the word Damn?

      • Adask

        January 15, 2013 at 8:18 PM

        I don’t know, but I don’t think so. “Damn” means “judge”. Thus if someone were to say “God damn you!” they would mean “God JUDGE you.” Being JUDGED by God is the ultimate curse because you are a sinner and you will be condemned. The object of Christ is to prevent your being judged by God. But if we assumed that “damnation” (judgement) is performed by anyone other than God, you might not be automatically condemned. Maybe you’ll be found guilty; maybe you’ll be found innocent. But “woe” would be the result if you had been judged and found guilty. Thus, “woe” would seem to follow damnation/judgement and would be worse than mere judgement (by anyone other than God) since it would be evidence that you’d been found guilty. Damnation/judgement is the trial. “Woe” is the sentence that follows being judged and found guilty.

  31. Michael

    January 13, 2013 at 11:04 AM

    Genesis 4:1 “Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD.”

    Does this say Satan fathered Cain? I do not know where you get your theology from, but I dare say it’s not from scripture.

  32. Michael

    January 13, 2013 at 11:38 AM

    Here is a discussion that I think covers the subject.

  33. Michael

    January 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM

    You know deb, when it comes right down to it, it only matters that I know who I am and to whom I belong. I am grateful that I am one of the elect. I leave the rest up to YHWH. My desire is to do His will. I want to hear the words well done good and faithful servant. One of the ways for me to do that is to love unconditionally, just as He has loved me. What I want people to say about me is, he was a man who loved. That is the greatest legacy I can leave.

    No matter what our differences, know that I love you as a sister in Yeshua. I am sure we will meet one day in paradise.

    • deb

      January 13, 2013 at 3:13 PM

      Michael, you’re absolutely right, and unless we (believers) are known by our love we are just clanging cymbals. We can sit and debate endlessly…, but it is really for the benefit of others. And we are told to take pains to make our calling and election sure. 2Peter 1:10

      Just some thoughts on your question of where I get my theology from–it is from Scripture

      The word “theology” is founded upon the discourse or reasoning of philosophical ideology by certain men and what they agree to, as having a more profound understanding of Scripture, than, say, someone unlearned or devoid of the same reasoning they have.

      When scripture says “study to show thyself approved” it doesn’t mean go to the Semitery and learn their way of thinking. It means be a Berean. The Holy Spirit isn’t imparted only to “theologians” and the rest of the commoners have to learn and understand through the lenses of a “theologian”. And who knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God who gives wisdom to all men liberally who ask of Him?

      We shouldn’t be quick to dismiss some scripture as not “theologically” sound. Some things are hidden in plain sight, but we are so quick to dismiss them because, well because no other “theologian” has approved it.

      The mention of Cain’s image/seed is from scripture, if one allows scripture to interpret scripture and not a “theologian” to give his interpretation. If scriptural metaphors are not properly understood then a cacophony of theological interpretations can arise and have.
      Jesus used many metaphors, one, Him being the bread of life–John 6–that alone can make someone say whaaaat?–if not properly understood.
      But in Genesis it’s about the seed–ch.3:15–the serpent seed and the seed of the woman–genealogy. And in ch.9 God establishes His covenant with Noah and his “seed”. Later with Abraham’s seed.

      And if the Genesis account of original sin is not properly understood, the rest of the Scriptures like the book of Jude, will be difficult to understand by some. Why do you suppose scripture is replete with warnings against sexual immorality and idolatry and the consequences thereof? Perhaps a more thorough understanding of the word ‘seed’ in Scripture is needed, as well as metaphors to gain a better understanding of what is being revealed.

      But here is an informative article if you have time:

      @No matter what our differences, know that I love you as a sister in Yeshua. I am sure we will meet one day in paradise. Likewise. Amen

  34. Michael

    January 13, 2013 at 4:58 PM

    Thanks for the article. I will read it.

    One big problem I have with stating people after the flood, like the Pharisees, are not made in the image of YHWH is, Cain and all his descendants were destroyed in the flood. All people born after the flood are descendants of Noah. Not possible to be descendants of Cain, as pointed out in the articles I posted links to.

  35. Michael

    January 13, 2013 at 7:00 PM


    After reading the article you posted I must respectfully disagree. Another glaring mistake the article makes is the fact that once a woman conceives her womb closes and it is not possible to impregnate another egg.

    This sounds an awful lot like what Arnold Murray teaches re Kenites. He claims the flood was just localized as some others believe as well. Of course, this is not supported in scripture either.

    I do appreciate you sharing even if there is a misunderstanding of scripture.

    • deb

      January 13, 2013 at 9:46 PM

      @Another glaring mistake the article makes is the fact that once a woman conceives her womb closes and it is not possible to impregnate another egg.–Actually, you are mistaken–a woman can conceive from different biologic fathers, having twins with separate DNA. It is called heteropaternal superfecundation and here is a published report.

      I’m sure there is other info out there. But, it probably can’t be true, no more than transhumanism or human hybrids or DNA altering or sons of god mating with daughters of men.

      BTW the reason Noah was considered perfect in his generation, was due to his genetic make up as well as his obedience to God. But there is no mention that his wife was perfect in her genetic make up–hence her son Ham and what he did, and his progeny and the curse.

      Never heard of Arnold Murray but I’ll take a look.

      No misunderstanding here.:-)

      • Michael

        January 14, 2013 at 7:13 AM

        The Bible is clear sons of God were mating with the daughters of men, Genesis 6. However, there is no proof of hu-mans or “transhumanism” from the Word of YHWH. He did not create hu-mans, He created man, male and female.

        Also, there is no proof from scripture that Eve mated with the serpent. That is simply hogwash.

        Where does it say anywhere that Noah was perfect due to his genetic makeup? Why would there be a need for YHWH to mention Noah’s wife’s genetic makeup? Acts 10:34 “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:” So I guess when scripture states YHWH is no respecter of persons, you do not believe it? He made some genetically perfect and others not? Give me a break!!

        It is unbelievable what people will do to try and distort the truth of scripture. Now you are inferring that Ham was a descendant of Cain. I suppose you believe blacks have the mark of Cain and is why they are black? If you are, again, hogwash!!

        This is getting too far out for me. See ya!

      • deb

        January 14, 2013 at 1:14 PM

        I didn’t say that Scripture speaks of transhumanism, hybrids, DNA manipulation etc. but that you don’t believe it’s possible. Just like you don’t believe that a woman can conceive from different biologic fathers and having twins with separate DNA. Yet all these things are not only possible but are reality.

        Satan’s plan has been from the very beginning, to thwart God’s plan and to imitate what God does and to destroy the bloodline through which the Messiah would come.

        DNA has everything to do with a physical seed of the serpent and the physical seed of the woman which would produce the perfect spotless sacrifice. But if you want to do spiritual gymnastics, go ahead.

  36. Ummer

    January 16, 2013 at 8:28 PM

    God tells me who a real christian is.

    Quran 5:82 translation
    You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews (eg atheists) and polytheists (eg those assured faces); and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, “We are Christians.” That is because among them are priests/scribes/learned and monks (ie those who leave society) and because they are not arrogant.

    The dictionary tells me who a really religious christian is as well.

    religion (n.)
    c.1200, “state of life bound by monastic vows,” also “conduct indicating a belief in a divine power,” from Anglo-French religiun (11c.), Old French religion “religious community,” from Latin religionem (nom. religio) “respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods,” in Late Latin “monastic life” (5c.).

    According to Cicero derived from relegere “go through again, read again,” from re- “again” + legere “read” (see lecture (n.)). However, popular etymology among the later ancients (and many modern writers) connects it with religare “to bind fast” (see rely), via notion of “place an obligation on,” or “bond between humans and gods.” Another possible origin is religiens “careful,” opposite of negligens.

    1) belief in the unseen
    2) reverence to God
    3) being literate, re-reading.
    4) obligation to God
    5) being careful instead of neglectful.

    The religious person isn’t the one with glee on his face on this earth, they might be happy. But would anyone believe a monastic person look like if they were high?

  37. Nicklas Arthur

    January 31, 2013 at 4:11 PM

    1. there is no 7 year tribulation period:
    2. rapture is a Latin cult word, therefore
    3. the rapture has been canceled:

  38. Irv

    February 16, 2013 at 9:43 PM

    [Hi Adask…Have you seen this? I bumped into it not long ago while webbing away.]

    Pretrib Rapture Pride

    by Bruce Rockwell

    Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
    Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
    The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
    BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
    Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
    Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
    Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
    Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.” Also Google “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)” – featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 “End Times Passover” blog.
    Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving in Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot,” the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
    Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
    (Postscript: For another jolt or two Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”)

    • Adask

      February 16, 2013 at 11:23 PM

      No, I haven’t previously seen that info, but it seems consistent with some of my own opinions. Thanks.

  39. Irv

    March 6, 2013 at 12:16 AM

    [Hi Adask, Me again. I discovered this article on the net. Quite riveting material.]

    Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart !

    “church” RAPTURE “church”
    (present age) (tribulation)

    In early 1830 Margaret was the very first one to see a pre-Antichrist (pretrib) rapture in the Bible – and John Walvoord and Hal Lindsey lend support for this claim!
    Walvoord’s “Rapture Question” (1979) says her view resembles the “partial-rapture view” and Lindsey’s “The Rapture” (1983) admits that “she definitely teaches a partial rapture.”
    But there’s more. Lindsey (p. 26) says that partial rapturists see only “spiritual” Christians in the rapture and “unspiritual” ones left behind to endure Antichrist’s trial. And Walvoord (p. 97) calls partial rapturists “pretribulationists”!
    Margaret’s pretrib view was a partial rapture form of it since only those “filled with the Spirit” would be raptured before the revealing of the Antichrist. A few critics, who’ve been repeating more than researching, have noted “Church” in the tribulation section of her account. Since they haven’t known that all partial rapturists see “Church” on earth after their pretrib rapture (see above chart), they’ve wrongly assumed that Margaret was a posttrib!
    In Sep. 1830 Edward Irving’s journal “The Morning Watch” (hereafter: TMW) was the first to publicly reflect her novel view when it saw spiritual “Philadelphia” raptured before “the great tribulation” and unspiritual “Laodicea” left on earth.
    In Dec. 1830 John Darby (the so-called “father of dispensationalism” even though he wasn’t first on any crucial aspect of it!) was still defending the historic posttrib rapture view in the “Christian Herald.”
    Pretrib didn’t spring from a “church/Israel” dichotomy, as many have assumed, but sprang from a “church/church” one, as we’ve seen, and was based only on symbols!
    But innate anti-Jewishness soon appeared. (As noted, TMW in Sep. 1830 saw only less worthy church members left behind.) In Sep. 1832 TMW said that less worthy church members and “Jews” would be left behind. But by Mar. 1833 TMW was sure that only “Jews” would face the Antichrist!
    As late as 1837 the non-dichotomous Darby saw the church “going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews.” And he didn’t clearly teach pretrib until 1839. His basis then was the Rev. 12:5 “man child…caught up” symbol he’d “borrowed” (without giving credit) from Irving who had been the first to use it for the same purpose in 1831!
    For related articles Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by D.M., “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” and “Scholars Weigh My Research.” The most documented and accurate book on pretrib rapture history is “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books online) – a 300-pager that has hundreds of disarming facts (like the ones above) not found in any other source.

  40. Irv

    March 25, 2013 at 1:16 AM

    [Hi Adask. Here’s another riveting web goodie I found.]

    Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View

    by George Wilson

    In 1995, in a 24-page booklet on 18th century pastor Morgan Edwards, evangelist John Bray claimed that Edwards taught a pretrib rapture in his 1788 book titled “Two Academical Exercises….”
    Those echoing Bray include Thomas Ice who wrote “Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist.” Edwards’ 1788 work can be found on the internet.
    In order to claim that Edwards held to pretrib, candidates for the I-can-find-pretrib-earlier-in-church-history-than-you-can medal – including Bray, Ice, LaHaye, Frank Marotta etc. – have intentionally covered up Edwards’ “historicism,” his belief that the tribulation had already been going on for hundreds of years. (How can anyone in the tribulation go back in time and look for a pretrib rapture?)
    Here’s proof of Edwards’ historicism and its companion “day-year” theory which can view the 1260 tribulation “days” as “years.”
    On p. 14 Edwards described the Ottoman Empire (which was then already 400 years old) as the Rev. 13:11 “beast.” On p. 20 he defined “Antichrist” as the already 1000-year-old “popery” and the “succession of persons” known as “Popes” – his other Rev. 13 “beast.” He necessarily viewed Rev. 13’s 1260-day period as 1260 literal years in order to provide enough time for his two “beasts.”
    On p. 19, while discussing “the ministry of the witnesses” of Rev. 11, he allotted “about 204 years” for their “years to perform” – years impossible to fit into a 3.5-year period!
    What about Edwards’ rapture? On pp. 21-23 he wrote about “the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself….The signs of Christ’s appearing in the clouds will be extraordinary ‘wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines,’ &. (Matth. xxiv. 6-8.)….The signs of his coming, in the heavens will be ‘the trump of God [I Thess. 4:16], vapor and smoke, which will darken the sun and moon [Matt. 24:29],’…and also cause those meteors called ‘falling stars’….
    Right after his combined rapture/advent (!), Edwards said: “And therefore, now, Antichrist…will…counterfeit the preceding wonders in heaven…causing ‘fire to come down from heaven’….And that godhead he will now assume, after killing the two witnesses….Now the great persecution of the Jews will begin…for time, times, and half a time….”
    Thomas Ice’s article on Edwards (listed at start) quoted only the first 27 words in the above quotation which end with “to himself” – and you can see why pretrib defender Ice stopped quoting there! (For an Ice-covered piece, Google “Pretrib Rapture Pride.”)
    Not only had most of Edwards’ historicist tribulation occurred before his combined rapture/advent, but incredibly his Antichrist kept raging for 3.5 years even after the Matt. 24 signs! No wonder his tutor advised him to correct his thesis!
    To read Edwards’ complete work, Google “[PDF] Two Academical Exercises…”
    For more info on Edwards, Google “McPherson Page (” Also Google “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by historian Dave MacPherson.

  41. Bobby Goodwin

    June 20, 2013 at 7:10 PM

    Some Christians believe Jews are anti-Christ. Why don’t Jews become Christians? Is it because they don’t believe Jesus is God?

    FACT #1. Christianity is a religion based on the worshiping of Christ, i.e. Jesus. So, just how do Christians justify such a thing? They would have to presume that Christ is God. What if Jesus was not God? If not, then Christians would be dual worshiping, which would thereby violate the first commandment. (EX 20:3)

    FACT #2. Jesus never said that he was “God”, he just said (John 10:30) “I and my Father are one.” (One what?). He didn’t say he and his father were the “same one”, or “same god”, he used the word “one”. Vague and misleading.

    In the book of Revelation the “angel” who was giving John the revelation had to of been Jesus, because he said “I am the Alfa and the Omega” (Rev 22:13). In Revelation 22:9 we read where John fell down to worship that angel (Jesus), who told John… See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God..” When Jesus told his disciples… “Who ever serves me must follow me…” (John 12:26) he didn’t mean they should worship him, merely follow him.

    • Huey Campbell

      June 20, 2013 at 10:32 PM

      Ask for a refund of your tuition Bobby! You did not get your moneys worth, You an’t learned a dam thing.
      the “angel” who was giving John the revelation had to of been Jesus, because he said “I am the Alfa and the Omega” (Rev 22:13)

      “I am the Alfa and the Omega” refers to the author of the message being given. It does not refer to the messenger giving the message. He was only an angel.

  42. Irv

    July 12, 2013 at 3:41 PM

    / Hello, Adask’s law. Check out the following which I recently discovered on the surprising net. /


    How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 2:34,35 reveal that Jesus stays at the Father’s right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His foes at the second coming to earth. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
    Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel’s posttrib resurrection!) It’s amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the “great commission” for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
    Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [“gathering”] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google “Walvoord Melts Ice.”
    Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” and “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate and documented book on pretrib rapture history which is obtainable by calling 800.643.4645).

  43. Rocky2

    January 23, 2014 at 1:47 AM

    Evangelicals Use Occult Deception !

    Heard of the coming blood moons? Is the pretrib rapture symbolized by anything in the heavens?
    Hal Lindsey, influenced by occult astrology, asserts on p. 124 in “The Late Great Planet Earth” that the famous Sphinx in Egypt has the head of a “woman” – even though encyclopedias say it’s the head of a “man”! Hal’s plagiarism on that page of a 19th century British theologian is his acceptance of the occult Virgo-to-Leo theory – a “Christian” zodiac arbitrarily starting with Virgo (Virgin Mary) and ending with Leo (Christ returning as “Lion,” Rev. 5:5).
    Those who swallow this guesswork often see Ursa Minor (part of Cancer which precedes Leo) as a heavenly “symbol” of a pretrib rapture!
    Pretribs also insist on separating the “church” from “Israel” – but when you aren’t looking (or thinking) they blithely “prove” pretrib by the Jewish feasts in Leviticus, the stages of a Hebrew wedding (Google “Pretrib Rapture: A Staged Event”), and the one “taken” and the other “left” in “Jewish” Matthew 24!
    Amazingly, Jewishness (and even anti-Jewishness) has been uncovered even in pretrib dispensationalism’s 19th century foundation (Google “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism”)!
    The current “blood moons” craze (promoted by lunar persons including rock musician Scottie Clarke and John Hagee) is tied to – you guessed it – the same Jewish feast days.
    Yes, there’s something colored red in the future of the church, but I don’t have moons in mind. What will really turn red will be the collective faces of many when it finally dawns on them that their any-moment fly-away was nothing more than an end time hoax!

  44. blazyjon

    May 30, 2014 at 7:52 PM

    Can you explain this?

    Please observe:

    Luke 17:36-37

    36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]
    37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
    So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

    Rightly divided with this (2 Tim. 2:15):

    Revelation 19:21

    And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

    Please note that the context of the Rev. verse I posted is indeed when the Lord returns; when heaven is opened and the son of man is revealed.

    So please explain, sincerely,


    P.S. My weblog is
    P.P.S. Let this just be fuel to the fire to those that agree. So, in other words, you don’t need to explain it to me. But for those that disagree please email me with an explanation.
    P.P.P.S. And to all:

    I sincerely ask you all to enjoy my weblog.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s