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Secret Gun Provision Hidden in Obamacare?

14 Mar

 

Nancy Pelosi

Nancy Pelosi (Photo credit: Wikipedia) Ayn Rand once observed that if you want to surround yourself with smiling faces, go to the nut house because all the nuts are constantly grinning.  Ms. Rand might also have mentioned Congress–where everyone is constantly smiling (at least while they’re on camera.  Congress is now become the “Happiest Kingdom of Them All”.

Remember when the Obama administration was struggling to pass Obamacare?  Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi told the Congress, “But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what’s in it . . . .” (Video).  And Congress, like a bunch of dumb, effing, rubber stamps, dutifully voted to enact a bill that they hadn’t even bothered to read.

Insofar as the Supreme Court has declared that the essence of every law is “Congressional intent,” we can reasonably wonder if Obamacare is a law at all since there can be no “Congressional intent” behind a law that Congress didn’t read before they voted for it.  If there’s no intent, can there be a law?

In any case, the “Pelosi moment” (when Congress voted for another bill they hadn’t even read) remains an “Obamanation” and a tribute to Congressional stupidity, cynicism and malfeasance.

But, as they say, “’tis an ill wind (or Obamanation) that blows no good.”

As it turns out, not only the Congress failed to read the 2800-page ObamaCare bill, neither had Nancy Pelosi and even President Obama.

And guess what?

According to Breitbart, Hot Air, and CNN (see video below), hidden within Obamacare, there is Senate amendment 3276, Sec. 2716, part c, where we can read:

(1) WELLNESS AND PREVENTION PROGRAMS- A wellness and health promotion activity implemented under subsection (a)(1)(D) may not require the disclosure or collection of any information relating to–`(A) the presence or storage of a lawfully-possessed firearm or ammunition in the residence or on the property of an individual; or`(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm or ammunition by an individual.`

(2) LIMITATION ON DATA COLLECTION- None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used for the collection of any information relating to–`(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition;`(B) the lawful use of a firearm or ammunition; or`(C) the lawful storage of a firearm or ammunition.`

(3) LIMITATION ON DATABASES OR DATA BANKS- None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used to maintain records of individual ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition.

(4) LIMITATION ON DETERMINATION OF PREMIUM RATES OR ELIGIBILITY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE- A premium rate may not be increased, health insurance coverage may not be denied, and a discount, rebate, or reward offered for participation in a wellness program may not be reduced or withheld under any health benefit plan issued pursuant to or in accordance with the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act on the basis of, or on reliance upon–`(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; or`(B) the lawful use or storage of a firearm or ammunition.

(5) LIMITATION ON DATA COLLECTION REQUIREMENTS FOR INDIVIDUALS- No individual shall be required to disclose any information under any data collection activity authorized under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act relating to–`(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; or`(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm or ammunition.’.

Based on that text, some have leaped to the conclusion that this Senate Amendment to Obamacare, “Prevents [All] Gun and Ammo Registry“.  When I first read about the “hidden provision” in Obamacare, I also jumped to that conclusion.

However, that’s not true.  Gun and ammunition registries won’t be possible under Obamacare, but such registries could still be possible under some other laws .  Doctors might be able to ask their patients some questions about their ownership of guns or ammunition, but doctors will not be able to compel you to answer such questions under Obamacare.

Thus, the Senate amendment preventing of gun and ammo registries under Obamacare is not, by itself, enormously important.  It’s good.  But it’s not great

•  However, if there were an instance where another gun registry law and Obamacare overlapped, it might be possible to use Obamacare as a basis to challenge the gun registry laws.

For example, the IRS has been tasked with enforcing Obamacare by imposing fines on those taxpayers who haven’t signed up for Obamacare.  I’ve heard rumors of proposed (?) legislation that would task the IRS with asking taxpayers if they have any guns or ammunition in their homes and/or imposing additional taxes on taxpayer’s guns.

If the IRS tried to enforce both Obamacare and gun registration laws, it might be possible to use the Obamacare prohibition against doctors collecting gun registration information to challenge other gun registration laws enforced by the IRS.  I doubt that such argument would work, but if the argument were carefully crafted, the IRS might still drop an enforcement action rather than risk losing against such challenge in court.

•  Here’s the CNN video describing the Senate Amendment to Obamacare:

video      00:02:54

 
52 Comments

Posted by on March 14, 2013 in 2nd Amendment, Health Care, Obama, Video

 

Tags: , , , , ,

52 responses to “Secret Gun Provision Hidden in Obamacare?

  1. Buck

    March 14, 2013 at 3:46 PM

    So under Obamacare, they cannot collect “any information relating to the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition.”

    Well, it they pass gun control laws, then the definition of “lawful ownership” would change…mission accomplished. This seems rather easy to me.

     
    • Sparky the dullard

      March 14, 2013 at 4:50 PM

      Buck,
      @ > Well, it they pass gun control laws, then the definition of “lawful ownership” would change…mission accomplished. This seems rather easy to me.

      Me too. After you explained it.

       
  2. Yartap

    March 14, 2013 at 7:12 PM

    Dr. Obamacare, “Mr. American Patient – According to the Obamacare Law, I may not ask you any question about any lawfully owned firearms or ammunition that you have in your possession. But I can ask if you have any unlawful firearms or ammunition in your possession – OK?”

    Mr. American Patient, “Sure Doc – ask away – but all my firearms were bought – legally – with good ole American Money.”

    Dr. Obamacare, “Do you mean that you bought the guns and ammunition with FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES?”

    Mr. American Patient, “Why – YES – I used the U.S. money, Federal Reserve Notes.”

    Dr. Obamacare, “I’m sorry – We will have the government possible take your UNLAWFULLY OWNED firearms and ammunition from you. You see, the use of Federal Reserve Notes is not a lawful purchase. By using Federal Reserve Notes, you have discharged your debts in equity, therefore lawful ownership is not complete by using FRN’s. Now, I will have to ask you more questions about your firearms and ammunition.”

     
    • Sparky the dullard

      March 14, 2013 at 9:58 PM

      Re:UNLAWFULLY OWNED (anything)
      How can it be said that anything is not “legally” owned? It is not unlawful to “drive” a “motor vehicle”
      without the Big Three but it is illegal to do so. Then,there are legal ways to steal,pillage,etc., but there is no lawful way to rob,anyone.

       
  3. Buck

    March 14, 2013 at 8:48 PM

    I’ve also heard the argument that purchasing with federal reserve notes (as debt instruments) allows the originator of the instrument (Federal Reserve) to always maintain ultimate ownership of whatever was “purchased” as you (the buyer) will only maintain equitable title to whatever asset (firearm, car, house, or otherwise) you acquired with those notes.

    Good thing that I bartered for the assets I have.

     
    • Sparky the dullard

      March 15, 2013 at 10:50 PM

      Buck,
      @> Good thing that I bartered for the assets I have.
      Wish I knew more of you circumstances,etc. Do you have a home? What is your mode of conveyance to go from point to point B? This is just for starters.

       
  4. Gary Russell

    March 15, 2013 at 12:03 AM

    Since all FFL sellers are “within the United States”, FRNs are very “legal”. If you, as an American National were to buy a gun from a private party, you could use gold or silver, but “within the United States” (where all FFL holders live), FRNs are perfectly acceptable.. Remember Alfred’s discussions about venue? When in Rome….. ; )

     
    • Sparky the dullard

      March 15, 2013 at 1:02 PM

      @Remember Alfred’s discussions about venue?
      There have been other discussions about venue on this blog also. Do you remember any of them?
      Maybe those discussions are not “very” easy to believe. Verily verily I ask you,what is the difference in something being legal,very legal,& very very legal? Is there an extremely legal?

       
  5. Doug

    March 15, 2013 at 4:49 AM

    When laws become unreasonable resistance to them is natural. (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God). The Federal Reserve System has been a criminal fraud from its inception. It was perpetrated during our grand parents lives and foisted upon us as if we have to automatically agree to obey whatever our ancestors allowed. I ask, “whose life is this anyhow” ?

    I think some of us have been brainwashed to believe injustice is OK or must be obeyed as long as it’s legislated. Frankly, I disagree with this mindset. For instance, the FEDERAL RESERVE ACT has bankrupted America financially as well as LEGALLY. I almost vomit when I hear otherwise intelligent beings say things like “that’s unconstitutional” … there hasn’t been a Constitution for longer than I’ve been alive (62 years). For the most part we complain without “doing” anything about the problem. And guess what ? The system is designed to accomplish just that – vote yourself into a coma and things will only get worse.

    Look, we’ve been “allowed” certain privileges that are slowly being withdrawn so as not to awaken too many too quickly. (Think boiling frog).

    The title of this article says it all. “Secret” gun provision … what a lot of nonsense. Tolerance of this legislative behavior is detrimental to our freedoms. Tolerance of the Kenyan’s propensity for initiating Executive Orders is even worse because it condones a dictatorship with Marxist leanings, IN AMERIKA.

    I have divorced myself from the FEDERAL GOVT and FED RESERVE (irreconcilable differences) as much as I can. The only thing that I do (under formal protest) is use FRNs. Otherwise I have shaken the dust off of my sandals and moved on with my life, FED FREE. I’m stubborn. I will do nothing to support the murderers in D.C. and would prefer a jail cell to compliance with baby killers. I can’t tell others what to do because I’m only in (quasi) control of myself. [I have learned to avoid personal (legal) entanglements with FEDS (including STATES) and anyone can do the same.]

    There are occasional snafus or run-ins with government goons, so what. Jesus told us if He were persecuted so would we be persecuted. In 25 years (or more) I’ve done 13 days in jail because I wouldn’t comply with any of their “requirements.” That’s nothing !!! I know of a guy right on this blog that did a day short of a year because he wouldn’t comply – And in so doing he has EARNED my complete respect, and may God bless him. Faith is a verb requiring “action” beyond just believing.

    Satan believes.

     
  6. Sparky the dullard

    March 15, 2013 at 7:03 AM

    Doug,
    @Faith is a verb requiring “action” beyond just believing.

    There are or at least were people on this blog who understand the who,what, when, where,how & why we are where we are in this “State of the Union & State of the State” situation. However,I have yet to see anyone who has suggested anything that will help change anything at least to the extent where we can start the ball rolling. To say we need to stand firm doesn’t explain how this will change anything. Standing firm means what? The people who stood the firmest were those in the war, called the “Civil War” but it was truly a war to destroy or maintain the “Sovereignty of the States.” We had Father against Son, Brother against Brother to the extent of killing each other because of a belief. But, regardless of whether you believe what the true purpose of the so called civil war was, what is your answer or suggestion as to what you mean by “action” beyond believing? What “action” do YOU suggest we take? I ask this because I want the ball to start rolling & I will do my part. I want to be a part of the “action” that is in the process of getting things back in order as they should be. AND, I pledge the pledge that is pledged in the Statute of 1776.

     
    • Anthony Clifton

      March 15, 2013 at 9:30 AM

      Doug has a Mental {spiritual} Hygeine issue…Sparky.

      have you ever heard of Cleanliness is next to Godliness ??

      It’s how “We” think…{are we using true information}…

      http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2013/03/dallas_weed_enthusiasts_plan_s.php

      Internally in our own minds do “we” lie to ourselves {unknowlingly} using a defective [Logic] language ?

      Irony/Hypocrisy…doublemindedness…how did “we” get here…?

      Oh ye of little faith…

      http://www.visibleorigami.com/2013/03/conscious-precipitation-of-appropriate.html

      I used to play golf with an old big injun who used to when younger, spin records at night, he had a 45 of this one that really cracked me up…My friend Paul and I laughed and laughed at the Harmony on the record as it played on the Juke box…Thanks to Flop Thurman.

      Paul died of liver cancer not long after, and in talking to Ray Wylie Hubbard I found out Paul and Ray had met each other in Nashville…

      Jesus admonished to “Know the Truth”…

       
      • Sparky the dullard

        March 15, 2013 at 1:48 PM

        Shalom Anthony,
        @ >Doug has a Mental {spiritual} Hygeine issue…Sparky.
        I think we all do to some extent. It is a matter of degree.
        @ >have you ever heard of Cleanliness is next to Godliness ??
        Oh yes I have “heard” this, but cleanliness is next to dirtiness too. If we are not clean we are dirty.
        @ >It’s how “We” think…{are we using true information}…
        That question is wide open for debate. Who knowingly uses false information except enemies of Yahshua? The scriptures say also that Satan deceives the whole world. This includes you & me.We are all deceived about something(s). I am a seeker of truth. I may very well be deceived about something that you are not & vice versa. This is where we could be of help to each other.All of us. But,who for certain are the “us?”
        @ > Somewhere in Virginia in the Rain.I like earthy music too. Is this the song that cracked you up?
        It didn’t crack me up. I heard the windshield wipers calling out your name.Good line, as well as some others.If this is not the song that cracked you up, can you provide the link or whatever.
        Thanks, Anthony.

         
    • Doug

      March 16, 2013 at 5:37 AM

      The solution in my mind is to obey God’s Laws rather than man’s. When man’s laws usurp God’s law I refuse. My choice isn’t about correcting earthly secular problems but more about keeping my eye on the prize and Christ. The Bible says clearly, “where Christ is there’s liberty” …

      I almost look forward to each oppportunity tp point out the hypocrisy of laws that take us down the path to perdition. Understanding that there are a lot of good people in government jobs and treating them accordingly/appropriately helps to make the process of educating them easier.

      No matter where I wind up – either freed or jailed – God is with me.

       
      • Sparky the dullard

        March 16, 2013 at 11:43 AM

        Doug,
        Your message of March 16, 2013 at 5:37 AM,
        @ >No matter where I wind up – either freed or jailed – God is with me.

        He HAD to be with me otherwise my mind would have snapped. The enemy had me actually believing at least 99.99 % that I did not live at the address I gave them. They actually had me believing that no such place existed, after several days of mental torture. I thought,oh dear lord, I have lost my mind. I was a walking zombie. But, when I was finally released, I proved that the address DID exist & still existing.I was confined for 63 days simply for refusing to provide a SSN. I said I cannot provide you with something I don’t have. Their answer was, YOU DO HAVE A SSN EVERYBODY DOES.I was also “advised” that I would STAY locked up until I provided them with a SSN. They had me believing that too, after about 45 days. IF the “Eternal God” YHWH had not been with me, I KNOW from what transpired, my mind would have snapped COMPLETELY. It has taken its toll however & I know I am not 100% ok. maybe 75%, I HOPE.

        Anyone who finds any fault with any part of your message is UNCLEAN !!!

         
      • Jerry Sparks

        March 25, 2013 at 11:41 PM

        @ >The solution in my mind is to obey God’s Laws rather than man’s.
        Me too, but the “LEGAL en FORCE ment agents could care less about that.

         
  7. pop de adam

    March 15, 2013 at 9:54 AM

    I have read some of these comments and some readers have returned to the question of: Does the use of FRNs either cloud title or ownership? I would say no, although I am certain either the government and courts/attorneys might argue otherwise.

    My logic and reasoning applied: Two parties wish to conclude a transaction, a transaction at its simplest a trade or exchange of items. These items could be anything and even include FRNs. These parties expend their labor to gain any of these items for which they may eventually trade again with. In the case of the Federal Reserve/government, How can they have been said to have vested any labor into these FRNs? Any value vested in them can be said to have been appropriated from all other parties that have any exposure to the FRNs. Every other party has some form of their own efforts vested into their items held out for exchange. I have heard the rumor/saying that: “notes of debt are not money”. I don’t know if this is certain, but it seems logical on its face. Perhaps when one holds these “notes” the debt held by the holder is not actually due to the Federal Reserve/government, but due to the holder who will never see this debt paid to its holder who also happens to be the creditor? As the notes holder(creditor) how can we expect payment on this outstanding debt, people in the past have tried to “redeem” them at some tellers window only to be rebuffed or offered the same in kind(more reserve notes). The simplest solution is to use them quick for hard goods and pass them on. This causes another confusing situation where as a holder these notes is recieving interest on their accumulation of the notes. If true money can earn interest in a positive manner, wouldn’t this mean that interest on a note would accumulate in a negative fashion? We might be rewarded for using actually using money, penalized for using notes of debt. We might have income(gain) if these transactions were transacted using actual money(questionable), any interests or awards to the accumulator of these notes are only going to secure more of these notes(debts) and if so how can they be considered any sort of gain since the “hole has been dug deeper” through the notes own use? So again who hasn’t really put up anything of value as a party to these exchanges, I would suggest the reserve bankers and the government. Some will suggest: “But we are the government.”, If this is true then each and any of us could refute or forgive such a debt to ourselves, but it is never played out that way. If we are trueiy a part of the government then it would be quite difficult to bring suit against ourself. Can someone sue themself? If the government is bringing suit against you how can you be both defendant and a plaintiff? It could perhaps be that they move from the position that we are their officers(with no expressly conveyed oath) and the hearing merely an administrative function. (side note: If we truely are agents and officers and we are lied to, do these other officers pay any penalties for such actions?).

    I would suggest that if some one is owed anything it is the person actually holding the note, it is currency, a placeholder, a promissory note. As the numbers of bills in circulation is increased and exacerbated through usury any hope of reconciling them is hopeless. I believe this formulation was never intended to come to parity with its self, even if we returned to some fractional derivitive of the gold dollar there will always be some form of paper value extended above and beyond actual reserves.

    We will have done to little much to late to cure it.

    Those dollars in your pocket are a debt, but the debt is owed to you not from you, otherwise why would anyone accept a debt in exchange for something with real intrinsic value? The only problem being this arrangement has been in place for long enough that no one remembers how the final two players in this musical chairs scenario is meant to come clean or even if they are expected to. I would suggest to humor it while it persists, It really shouldn’t be difficult to show who is actually welshing on their debts and who isn’t.

    -Good day to all, Pop

     
    • Sparky the dullard

      March 15, 2013 at 2:13 PM

      pop
      @ > I have heard the rumor/saying that: “notes of debt are not money”.
      It is not a rumor & it is for certain that notes are not money &/or dollars. This note is also called a dollar “bill.” A bill is something owed,right? We only pass around the debt owed.Have you ever read the book Miracle on Main Street? Well I know you haven’t. Read it sometime.
      @> We will have done to little much to late to cure it.
      And I say,we have done to little to late to cure it.
      @ >Those dollars in your pocket….
      Rare is the man or woman that has even ONE dollar in his/her pocket. palani is an exception. I think palani has 5, maybe more I do remember it was/is a Gold piece.
      Good Day to you too,pop.

       
      • Doug

        March 16, 2013 at 5:40 AM

        Sparky and Pop,

        When a check is sent to the IRS and then deposited it is for credit against OBLIGATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES.

         
    • pop de adam

      March 16, 2013 at 12:26 AM

      sparky, A4non, what of it? Is it otherwise?

       
      • Sparky the dullard

        March 16, 2013 at 6:16 PM

        Doug,
        @ > When a check is sent to the IRS and then deposited it is for credit against OBLIGATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES.

        Credit against or credit for OBLIGATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES.?

         
    • pop de adam

      March 16, 2013 at 2:58 AM

      I will refrain from disparageing the losers.

      -pop

       
      • Sparky the dullard

        March 16, 2013 at 11:52 AM

        pop,

        @ >I will refrain from disparageing the losers,@ >what of it? Is it otherwise?
        Pop, are you back on the hooch? or, is it otherwise?

         
  8. Anon4fun

    March 15, 2013 at 2:59 PM

    Sparky: “However, I have yet to see anyone who has suggested anything that will help change anything at least to the extent where we can start the ball rolling.”

    To get useful solutions, one should ask those who are interested in solving, rather than contributing to, the problem.

    If you ask an anarchist who wants the United States to be dismantled and sold off to the highest bidder – i.e. international usury, which runs the currency printing presses – don’t expect much of a useful answer.

    They are likely to advise a counterproductive course: hate-the-state and therefore quit participating in politics, flee the field of battle in your country’s hour of need, hide yourself and your stockpile in a hole somewhere, and watch the proceedings on the boob tube as the unopposed NWO billionaires move in for the kill.

     
    • Sparky the dullard

      March 15, 2013 at 4:15 PM

      Anon4fun
      March 15, 2013 at 2:59 PM

      A4f, your answers show more of how not to get the ball rolling than they do on how TO get the ball rolling. But, I am tired & probably seeing & understanding things different from what they truly are. Will try again later i.e., read your comment after I take a nap.

       
      • Anon4fun

        March 15, 2013 at 5:16 PM

        The purpose of my comment was only to address your comment. Hence the quotation.

        My comment was not about how to get the ball rolling other than maybe to suggest ignoring advise from the NWO’s anarchist helpers. Their objective is the destabilization and eventual break up of this country followed by a distressed sale of the American people’s national inheritance to the billionaires of world usury.

        They will not help We the People get the ball rolling in any sort of productive direction.

         
  9. Sparky the dullard

    March 15, 2013 at 6:21 PM

    Anon4fun
    @ > “My comment was not about how to get the ball rolling other than maybe to suggest ignoring advise from the NWO’s anarchist helpers.”

    I guess I don’t know or I am to dense to know IF I am listening to NWO’s anarchist helpers. Now, A4f I am not saying that you are saying this about me, I am saying it of my own accord. I am saying this about myself.

     
    • Anon4fun

      March 15, 2013 at 7:45 PM

      Sparky: You are not dense. Let me try to explain my meaning better.

      I’d say it is more important to recognize content that originated from the NWO’s anarchist helpers, rather than spotting these individuals as you are talking to them. The latter is not always possible, because often people are innocently suckered into repeating this content without themselves being on the NWO payroll.

      On the other hand, sometimes you can triangulate on this type of NWO propaganda puke based on other traits not directly related to the dissolution of the United States for privatization into the hands of world usury.

      For example: the incongruous dropping of apostrophes in an otherwise competently written text. This happens because the anarchist propaganda department got a “style and usage” memo from the newspeak department about the next step in the destruction of American’s culture of literacy.

      Or, it could be their method of persuasion. NWO propaganda helpers of all stripes tend to place heavy emphasis on subjectivity, such that your motive for buying into their message is resentment, covetousness, fear, etc., especially in preference to acting on principle for “the general welfare”, as the Founders put it.

       
      • Sparky the dullard

        March 15, 2013 at 10:20 PM

        Anon4fun
        @ > Sparky: You are not dense.
        I DISAGREE !!! (:
        I did think it was possibly someone on this blog or this thread (<?) that I was exchanging messages with that you MAY be referring to. And I did go back over those messages & I could not figure out who it could be. However,I think I can safely say,at this time, you do not consider me a troll. I did not even know what a troll was until I noticed you used that word in a prior comment to someone else I looked it up to see what it meant. I remembered something in grade school about a troll under the bridge. I could not connect that troll with the same meaning as a troll on a blog. Anyway, I don't think you consider me,at least at this time,or yet, a troll. This helps me. Thanks Anon

         
  10. Timmy

    March 15, 2013 at 7:35 PM

    well, if ya wanna know whats going to happen, it’s all spelled out in Revelation. Encoded in symbols, but not that difficult to interpret if you are diligent and sober. Big clue…. the “lamblike beast” is the good ol’ USA… (was gentle but then grew horns and became aggressive and oppressive and a tool of the Dragon in enforcing the global totalitarian government…) yes, it’s all right there. tune out idiot TV preachers (zionist tools) and start prayerfully studying. Just a suggestion for your consideration. It’s all accelerating and is gonna go down fast…

     
    • Sparky the dullard

      March 15, 2013 at 10:43 PM

      Timmy,
      I understand everything you said the same way you do. I think we are of “kindred spirits.” The Olivet prophecy (Matthew 24) says what’s gonna happen to, as I know you also know this.But, I cannot just sit here on my hindquarters & do nothing. However, I do know if I go into the enemy camp & be John the Baptist Jr. & tell them what they are & to repent,etc, I can look forward to them caring for me in their hospital where psychotropic DRUGS will be administered.They are ruthless.I have experienced their wrath several times. So, I ll ask you. Al says we must stand firm. How do you stand firm or what does stand firm mean to you?

       
      • Anon4fun

        March 16, 2013 at 11:14 AM

        Sparky:

        I wouldn’t hold my breath (or my efforts against world usury’s lust for the birthright of Americans) waiting for the Olivet prophecy to be fulfilled. Scripture tells us when those events were to take place.

        Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

        That is, the events of the Olivet prophecy were to happen during that generation, in the first century AD.

        The Greek word here translated “generation” is “genea” (Strong’s 1074) which is used to mean what we mean by “generation” throughout the New Testament.

        Also, addressing the corruption, and its consequences, of “this generation” was a recurrent theme in the ministry of Jesus, always referring to the generation then living.

         
      • Timmy

        March 16, 2013 at 1:33 PM

        Sparky,

        This is a difficult thing. My main principle is that spiritual things come first; the battle is NOT against flesh and blood but against principalities ( a reference to the demonic forces). That by no means says I will do nothing. But it’s choosing that battle and moment wisely that is the key. I have no perfect answer. I am carefully considering what is going down now…

        BTW, please don’t call yourself a “dullard”. Humility is good but self disparagement is not healthy.
        Peace.

         
    • Sparky the dullard

      March 16, 2013 at 6:21 PM

      @ >diligent and “sober”? ut oh

       
  11. Sparky the dullard

    March 16, 2013 at 12:38 PM

    A4f
    @Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you,This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Anon you know that a prophecy is forecasting a “future event.” What will be the sign of your return, is asked. Has he returned yet? As I type these words, the event spoken of in Matthew 24 is STILL a future event and this is why I say this. All translations of the “original inspired scriptures” are not inspired. I’m happy to see that you use Strong’s Concordance. This tells me you are sincere. I am too but sometimes we can be sincerely wrong. Tell me what “this” can mean via Strong’s. I have either lost or misplaced mine.
    What if any translation said, THAT generation? Just because the word, this, is used, does not blend in with entire message in Matthew 24, for example, “take heed that no man deceive you.” was that only meant for those he was speaking to at the time & not to/for you & me also? When Christ returns his feet will touch the Mount of Olives & the mountain will split apart. Has the Mount of Olives split apart yet? There is MUCH more to delve into about The Olivet Prophecy, which I believe is still something that is to happen, and has not been fullfilled YET. Let’s still be friends if we understand some things differently. Or as Huey would say, Let’s stay civil, and let’s not be cussin each other out. I truly love Huey> He’s my Brother in Christ. But, alas, Huey & I understand some things different. I still love him,i.e., as Christ loves him. I am not a queer,etc. I guess I am odd in this sense in that I become close in my own mind to others commenting on Big Al’s blog. It’s like I am part of a family & the “others” are my brothers & sisters.

     
    • Timmy

      March 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM

      I believe after deep study and reflection that the Olivet discourse/prophecy of Matt 24 is intertwined, like much of the Old Testament prophecies. That is it blends comments addressed to those hearing it then, and what would soon happen (sacking of Jerusalem, scattering, etc.) ALONG WITH future oriented prophecies that would apply to those living at the very end.

      If you look at it like this, you can see the two threads.
      Much like some of Isaiah’s prophecies… addressed to those there then, but also blending future prophecies, even blending over into the Kingdom after this world is over.

       
      • Sparky the dullard

        March 16, 2013 at 1:54 PM

        Timmy
        Your ENTIRE message of/on > March 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM
        EXACTLY !!! AND, you are a master of brevity. And you know something else Timmy? I KNEW you would come to my rescue & make clear what I was trying to say to Anon4fun. THANK YOU !!!

         
      • Sparky the dullard

        March 16, 2013 at 2:51 PM

        Timmy,
        P.S. I have said this before.The ONLY reason I use “Sparky” is because a Justice of the Peace in Texas, kept saying over & over “understand SPARKY?” He said this repeatedly but I knew he was really meaning dullard. To long to try & explain. IF this same so called JOP read my comments he would say well he (meaning me) at least knows how to identify himself correctly. No, I take that back in part. The JOP would say, HISSELF. If I am Sparky the dullard to him I am the same to any others like him & there are many like him. But, Yahshua was mocked too, & I kinda get a kick out of it when they TRY to belittle me. Makes me feel that I am put in the same category with Yahshua even tho I am not worthy to kiss his feet but I would do that, in a heartbeat. Truth is, I do that mentally every day, kiss his feet, yes, & I mentally wipe my tears from his feet too. I am not ashamed in any sense to say this. No, not at all. I’m like he was too when he turned over the STONE tables of the “money changers.” My dandruff can be aroused too !! I love you Timmy !!!

         
    • Anon4fun

      March 16, 2013 at 3:59 PM

      Sparky: “What will be the sign of your return, is asked. Has he returned yet?”

      Christ himself said his “parousia” (Strong’s 3952) would occur in that generation, so I believe it. Given this, logic requires me to concluded that the prophesied event already happened. The question he was replying to, in dubious English translation:

      Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

      The timing of this event is confirmed repeatedly in scripture. For example:

      Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

      Luke 9:26-27 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

       
      • Sparky the dullard

        March 16, 2013 at 5:41 PM

        Anon4fun, my friend,
        @ > Christ himself said his “parousia” (Strong’s 3952) would occur in that generation,

        I agree. It’s just that “THAT” generation, to me, means the generation alive WHEN the rest of the unfullfilled events ARE happening. Generations come & generations go. If it’s true as you say that Christ has already returned, he hasn’t been of much help in establishing “thy will be done on EARTH as it IS in heaven. He, Christ might as well return, go back to, & once again sit on the right hand side of his Father because he is not changing much here,on earth.Fact is, since his “return” things have only gotten worse.

        @ > Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

        Very good Anon,the above scripture would prove your point to those who only have that & that alone to rely on, me included, but why did you leave out the scripture that explains what Matthew 16:27-28 REALLY means? Try mark 9:1-9.

         
  12. Anon4fun

    March 16, 2013 at 7:27 PM

    >>I agree. It’s just that “THAT” generation, to me, means the generation alive WHEN the rest of the unfullfilled events ARE happening.

    It may have that meaning to you, but I don’t find any support for it in the Bible.

    An audience hearing “this generation” would conclude the speaker means the generation then living. An exception would be if the phrase was used in context such that a different generation, already specified, was understood as being referred to, but such is not the case in the Olivet prophecy. The only reference to any generation is “this generation”, and the only indication of the timing of the events prophesied is “this generation”.

    Also, part of the Olivet prophecy is the destruction of the Temple, which did in fact happen during that generation in 70 AD.

    >>If it’s true as you say that Christ has already returned, he hasn’t been of much help in establishing “thy will be done on EARTH as it IS in heaven.”

    That’s your opinion. I prefer to stick with the facts of what is written in the Bible.

    Christ prophesied his “parousia”. He never talks about a long-term return. He promised a brief and awesome appearance after which his disciples would go with him where he was going.

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    >> Very good Anon, the above scripture would prove your point to those who only have that & that alone to rely on, me included, but why did you leave out the scripture that explains what Matthew 16:27-28 REALLY means? Try mark 9:1-9.

    I left it out because it does not mean what you think it means.

    Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

    These two verses may be next to each other, but that does not mean the first verse refers to the second verse. In the first verse, event A happens. In the second verse, event B happens. However, A does not refer to B.

    The interpretation that A refers to B makes no sense, anyway. It’s not much of a prophesy to say that some of those present will not have died by the time a certain event occurs, when that event is to occur 6 days later.

     
    • Jerry Sparks

      March 16, 2013 at 8:23 PM

      They experienced a “vision” Anon. A foretaste of an actual future coming event. The scripture also says that Moses died without receiving the promises. Moses is still dead today. He will receive what he was promised when the first resurrection.occurs. Also,Christ said, No man has ascended into heaven…..” Moses & Elijah did not really & truly appear in the “vision” that the disciples “saw.” It only “appeared” like they did, to the disciples. But the next time this happens it will not be a vision, it will be the Real McCoy. And the disciples will see the exact same thing they “saw” in the preliminary event VISION but this or at THAT time it will be for REAL. Hey Timmy where are you? Help !!

       
    • Jerry Sparks

      March 17, 2013 at 5:29 AM

      Hi Anon4fun
      Do you think 2nd Peter 1:16 is “connected” in anyway to Matthew 16:27-28 &/or Mark 9:1-9?
      Also, A4f, I do not see any discrepancy between verse 1 & 2 of mark 9:1-2 & also,Mark 8:38 which says in pertinent part,”If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
      Apparently “this generation” as described above in Mark 8:38 is the only generation Christ’s words applied to.Only that generation & none other? No future generations? If so, then we need not be concerned about Christ being ashamed of us, do we?
      @ >An audience hearing “this generation” would conclude the speaker means the generation then living.
      I’m sure “an audience” would conclude that also. We understand this much alike
      @ He promised a brief and awesome appearance after which his disciples would go with him where he was going.
      Where did he & the disciples go? All the disciples excepting one died a martyr.
      @Also, part of the Olivet prophecy is the destruction of the Temple, which did in fact happen during that generation in 70 AD.
      True.
      @ I go to prepare a place for you.
      True & I believe “this” place is still in the process of being prepared as I type these words
      @And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
      I don’t believe Christ has come again & received those unto himself & are with him, as of this time, now, as I type these words. If I am wrong then the first resurrection as described in Revelation & other scriptures has already occurred. Remember the Apostle Paul saying > “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
      Now A4f if this has already happened, You & I & Big Al,Christian Gains,Timmy, Huey,Yartap as well as everyone else alive NOW have been left out haven’t we?!?!
      @The interpretation that A refers to B makes no sense, anyway.
      I think if I knew what A & B means/is I could at least have an opinion about A v. B. The again, we both do know & understand exactly the same way what an opinion is.
      Shalom

       
  13. Anon4fun

    March 17, 2013 at 2:01 PM

    >>Do you think 2nd Peter 1:16 is “connected” in anyway to Matthew 16:27-28 &/or Mark 9:1-9?

    A voice from heaven calls Jesus “my beloved Son” in 2nd Peter 1:17, which also happens in Mark 9:7, so there is a connection.

    This does not happen in Matthew 16:27-28, so to that extent there is no connection.

    >>Apparently “this generation” as described above in Mark 8:38 is the only generation Christ’s words applied to. Only that generation & none other?

    Correct insofar as “this adulterous and sinful generation” was a specific generation, namely that which the prophetic phrases “this generation will certainly not pass away” and “there be some standing here which shall not taste of death” also indicated.

    >>Where did he & the disciples go?

    The answer is in the same quoted section:

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    >>I don’t believe Christ has come again & received those unto himself & are with him, as of this time, now, as I type these words.

    Then you don’t believe the multiple prophesies in the Bible, including several from Jesus Christ himself, dating his coming in glory to the first century AD.

    Yet you do acknowledge that the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, which is part of the Olivet prophesy, occurred in the generation of Christ’s ministry.

    Matthew 24:1-2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

    >>If I am wrong then the first resurrection as described in Revelation & other scriptures has already occurred.

    Either it has, and you have been misinformed about the contents of scripture, or the near-future time frame prophesies in the New Testament are wrong. I’d say the former.

    >>Now A4f if this has already happened, You & I & Big Al,Christian Gains,Timmy, Huey,Yartap as well as everyone else alive NOW have been left out haven’t we?!?!

    Why would you think that? Just because the first generation of Christ’s regathered Israel was resurrected to New Jerusalem, does not exclude the current generation of Christ’s regathered Israel from experiencing the same.

    >>I think if I knew what A & B means/is I could at least have an opinion about A v. B.

    There is no indication that Mark 9:1 prophesies Mark 9:2. Nor does it make sense to interpret Mark 9:1 as a prophesy of Mark 9:2, since Mark 9:1 occurs only 6 days before Mark 9:2.

     
    • Jerry Sparks

      March 17, 2013 at 6:03 PM

      Thanks Anon4fun
      I think I could see it like you do A4f if the question asked to Christ was,”What will be the signs(<plural) of your RETURNS."(<plural)
      Also,it seems you overlooked my input of all the disciples dying except one & yet Christ said,"Verily I say unto you, that there be some that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. “this/that” < may seem to be "this/that" is what I am saying but I do not want or mean for it to be taken "this/that" way. Thanks for continuing to stay with me, my dear Brother.

       
      • Jerry Sparks

        March 17, 2013 at 6:07 PM

        Anon4fun,my complete reply did not post,only part of it did

         
  14. Jerry Sparks

    March 17, 2013 at 6:20 PM

    A4f
    Well, let’s try again,I’ll try to remember the portion that did not go through. Strange,but I remember you have had the same problem before. Why does this happen Anon? Only part of a comment goes through? The >this/that had a lot said before those words,yet those words did not go through which makes me look 100% stupid because what you received from me doesn’t make sense.Let me see what happens on this comment before I try to remember what did not go through. I apologize, but I don’t know what I did to cause this to happen

     
  15. Anon4fun

    March 17, 2013 at 10:46 PM

    Sparky,

    >>I think I could see it like you do A4f if the question asked to Christ was,”What will be the signs(<plural) of your RETURNS."(>Also, it seems you overlooked my input of all the disciples dying except one & yet Christ said,”Verily I say unto you, that there be some that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.”

    We don’t know who all was there, so we don’t know how many of them were not going to die by the date in question.

    I would clarify something I said earlier. New Jerusalem appears to signify the New Covenant bride of Christ, through which the resurrection of Christians takes place. So “through” would be better than “to” in the sentence about it in my previous post.

    Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

     
    • Anon4fun

      March 17, 2013 at 10:50 PM

      >>I think I could see it like you do A4f if the question asked to Christ was,”What will be the signs(plural) of your RETURNS.”(plural)

      The word “return” is not used all at. The original text says “parousia” (Strong’s 3952), which does not mean “return” in English.

       
      • Jerry Sparks

        March 18, 2013 at 3:44 AM

        “parousia” 3952
        1) presence
        2) the coming, arrival, advent
        a) the future visible “return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

        This, excuse me,that which is written above is what I get,comes up on “parousia
        If that which is written above has happened, then do me a BIG favor & find one more person, excuse me, one more individual, EXCUSE ME,one more man or woman & sign whatever is necessary & have me committed to the loony bin because that,excuse me THIS is where I need to be.I’m serious.

         
      • Jerry Sparks

        March 18, 2013 at 12:36 PM

        A4f
        1.>Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
        2.>Then Christ said to his disciples, Truly I tell you,some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (said to who?)
        The “some” standing here,at that time,was Peter,James,& John & I believe Mark 9 explains what is written above.All of the “some” mentioned,later died. Peter was crucified upside down.Said he was not worthy to die as his MASTER. Law en-FORCE-ment agents of that time said, NO PROBLEM. They, the “LAW” en- FORCE- ment agents DID show Peter why & how it was NO PROBLEM. Human nature has not changed 1 iota. Same as it has been since Adam & Eve transgressed.

         
  16. Jerry Sparks

    March 19, 2013 at 5:36 PM

    The “some” standing here,at that time,WERE Peter,James,& John…

     
  17. Mike

    April 11, 2013 at 7:02 AM

    What everyone is missing here is that fact that this amendment was necessary at all. What this really says is that some politician or group of them intended to put that requirement in this law. And I would bet everything I have that that politician was a liberal democrat.

     

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