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Gov-co Won’t Accept Registered Mail??

04 Nov

RegisteredMailThe essential idea behind this post will probably turn out to be false.  Take it all with salt.

I had lunch with a friend of mine today.  He’d sent a response to the IRS last Friday by Registered Mail.  Registered Mail is more expensive than Certified Mail, but Registered Mail is automatically admissible as evidence in court.

The postman told him that it is now government policy to refuse to accept all Registered Mail.  If you send Registered Mail, the Post Office will still process and send it.  However, if that Registered Mail is delivered to, say, the IRS or the Department of Agriculture, those agencies will refuse to sign for it and cause your Registered Mail to be returned to you unopened.

On hearing my friend’s story, my first thought is that the “legal reform” community must be having a strong effect on the government.  Apparently, the government has realized that Registered Mail is used by “sovereigns” and other “terrorists” to create evidence to be used for suing the government.  Therefore, if gov-co sees Registered Mail, they may presume that it signals a coming lawsuit.  Gov-co is apparently tired not of only of the annoyance of our lawsuits, and the cost of our lawsuits, but perhaps even our victories, near victories and/or inevitable victories.  Therefore, government may be seeking to blunt our lawsuits by depriving us of the evidence we can create with Registered Mail.

But bear in mind, that I’m telling you what my friend told me about what a Post Office employee told him that he’d heard from some other source.  That’s hearsay on hearsay on hearsay on hearsay.  That’s not a reliable chain of “evidence”.

I have absolutely no evidence that this story about some or all of the government no longer accepting Registered Mail is true.  In fact, if I had to guess, I’d say the rumor is false.  I can’t imagine that the entire government would enact a policy whereby all government agencies would refuse to accept Registered Mail. (However, I could imagine that the IRS, alone, might’ve started a new policy of refusing to accept Registered Mail.)

Nevertheless, I’m publishing this story in hopes that some of you will have some evidence that supports or refutes this rumor.

And I’m also publishing on the off chance that the rumor is true, because a policy of refusing to accept our Registered Mail could be a great blessing.

I.e., suppose: 1) the IRS was after me to pay $5,000; and 2) it’s true that the IRS won’t accept any Registered Mail. And let’s suppose I sent the IRS a Registered Mail containing a $100 check and a letter explaining that: 1) I wasn’t sure if I owed the alleged $5000 debt or not; 2) I disputed the debt; 3) that the enclosed $100 was my good faith attempt to pay part of the alleged debt; and 4) the IRS should cash the $100 if they still thought I owed the $5,000 or return the check to me, if they agreed that I did not owe them $5,000.

Soooo. . . if the IRS refused to open my Registered Mail envelope and sent my $100 check back to me, would that stand up in court as evidence that the IRS had agreed that I did not owe the $5,000?  Probably not.  But the issue would still be so bizarre that the IRS might not want to take a chance prosecuting and therefore let the case go.  (Would you want to be the US Attorney responsible for explaining to the jury why the IRS refused to accept mail in the legally acceptable form of Registered Mail?  Would you want to try to explain that such IRS policy was not due to a desire to obstruct justice by depriving the sender of admissible evidence?  I wouldn’t.)

More, I’m told that according to UCC § 3-604, a debt tendered and refused is a debt paid at law.  I.e., if you try to pay a debt with legal tender and the creditor refuses to accept your payment, that bill is nevertheless deemed to paid in full.  If so, then if I was certain that the IRS would return my Registered Mail unopened, I might include a check for the whole $5,000 and a letter reminding the IRS of the relevant law about refusing to accept a payment in legal tender.  If the IRS returned my Registered Mail to me unopened and with my $5,000 check included, and if I could secure evidence from the Post Office that my Registered Mail had been delivered to the IRS, but the IRS had refused to receive it, I might have pretty good grounds to argue that I’d offered to pay, the IRS had refused my payment, and the debt was therefore canceled.

You can bet that if any of the previous conjecture turned out to be valid, the IRS would soon start accepting Registered Mail again, and we “legal reform” people would quickly return to using Registered Mail to create admissible evidence.

So.  Is the rumor true that government in general (or the IRS in particular) no longer accepts Registered Mail?  Probably not.  But in the unlikely event that several of you provide evidence in support of the rumor, perhaps we can have some fun.

 
19 Comments

Posted by on November 4, 2013 in Income Tax, USPS

 

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19 responses to “Gov-co Won’t Accept Registered Mail??

  1. van brollini

    November 4, 2013 at 1:14 AM

    I have had SEVERAL experiences with our friends and registered as well as certified mail taking weeks and months to be delivered. I resorted to FEDEX and it only took 3 days and WAS SIGNED FOR. Fedex is also acceptable evidence legally.

     
  2. Me2

    November 4, 2013 at 6:36 AM

    You are thinking of the Business & Commerce Code, Title 1, Chapter 3, §§ 3.310(b)(2) and 3.603(b)). The first section says that notes are money, the second says:

    If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, to the extent of the amount of the tender, of the obligation of an indorser or accommodation party having a right of recourse with respect to the obligation to which the tender relates.

    Please note carefully, the discharge is only to the extent of the amount of the tender. If you mailed them a check for $100 and they refuse it, that amount is discharged, not the entire debt.

    So, why not use 3.310(b)(2) and simply give them a note for double the amount owed to discharge the debt entirely. If they refuse it the entire debt is discharged. If they take it the debt is also discharged.

     
  3. Henry

    November 4, 2013 at 6:50 AM

    If there is any question, and assuming you can get an honest (?) employee on the line, why not just ring them up and ask them if it would be okay to send your correspondence via registered mail?

     
  4. Gary Lee, Russell

    November 4, 2013 at 9:23 AM

    IRS and California FTB, DOJ, as well as DMV have refused to sign for certified mail here, so they might have a heart attack at registered mail. I like your thinking on the registered mail, though!

     
  5. cynthia

    November 4, 2013 at 9:23 AM

    Love you logical thinking! Keep at it!

     
  6. cynthia

    November 4, 2013 at 9:27 AM

    post script – some are ‘winning’ via “Administrative Default Judgment” process ‘out of court’ expressing simply, prove with first hand evidence that “I” am said ‘tax payer’ and NOT a “non-taxpayer” which is NOT the same as “tax evader”; separately same ‘admin process’ – prove first hand evidence that I am a ‘person’ (fiction) and not a living man, fully lawful, not legal… and similar lawful vs legal logic – wet ink living signatory (i.e. no ‘department’ or ‘corporate’ ‘template’ letter…) There are many ways to as I like to say, slice a multi-layered onion – and ‘cook’ it – smile.

     
  7. r4freedom

    November 4, 2013 at 10:37 AM

    A few years ago I sent registered mail to the IRS Commissioner, the Sect. of Treasury, and two District Directors with their names on the first line of their business address. By law, they were the only ones that could legally open these registered letters, but none were opened by the addressee. All were opened by employees under them. After thirty days , I sent another round of Registered letters to these same Officers, informing them of Default , and giving them 10 days to respond. Again, none were opened by the addressee, all by employees. After the 10 days , I sent another round of Registered letters informing them of Estoppel and 3 days to remedy . To date , none of my letters were ever opened by , nor responded to , by the Officers I sent these to. I have kept my records , copies of all letters, signed ,dated, and notarized, as well as the postal record of the registered letters including the signature of the employees that signed for them. These records are my evidence of their Administrative fraud against me as these letters were lawful Notices of Complaint with Affidavit of facts, requiring by law, a reply. Maybe they are not signing for the registered mail now as the lesser employees don’t want the liability associated with criminal mail tampering. The Officers will never sign their name as they KNOW of their FRAUD and they don’t want any personal liability that these letters attach. Gov-co has been a defacto foreign corporation at least since the Bankruptcy of 1933. They don’t work for us .

     
  8. katmanwon

    November 4, 2013 at 11:02 AM

    Pursuant to UCC 3-604 A debt tendered and refused is a debt paid at law.

     
  9. Crandal

    November 4, 2013 at 11:17 AM

    The IRS has tried to impose $10,230 against my wife and I for frivolous tax return. Over 2 years time they sent duns threatening to lien our property. My responses were always sent registered with return receipt. Their Final Notice I returned to them as a Conditional Acceptance Upon Proof of Claim. Haven’t received a reply in 9 months.

     
  10. palani

    November 4, 2013 at 11:37 AM

    I have evidence in the form of several microfilmed envelopes delivered to the Secretary of State, Washington City that no postage of any sort is needed to communicate with your government. These are from the period of 1840 and they have FREE stamped where the postage would otherwise go. I am sure the rules haven’t changed since then.

     
  11. Adrian

    November 4, 2013 at 12:40 PM

    Many People in America stopped doing business with IRS for a long time.They never heard from THEM again.
    And remember: the Tax payer is JOHN DOE and not John Doe.
    When identify yourself with a picture ID,make sure the name on it is not JOHN DOE.
    Now you understand why banks don’t want to accept ID’s with John Doe on it.
    Remember who THEY are,CORPORATE-MAFIA.
    MAFIA is an agent for VATICAN.
    VATICAN is the first corporation in existence.
    VATICAN is controlled by the Jesuit Order.
    Jesuits are jew-arabs.

     
  12. Jethro!

    November 5, 2013 at 10:04 AM

    If IRS refused registered mail, I would likely view it as encouraging. When this is reversed and IRS send registered mail, it doesn’t seem to both them in the least if it’s refused. They simply proceed on. All their records have to show is that they mailed it, and they’re good to go (administratively). It would seem the same must apply to us.
    That said, though I have not seen registered mail refused, I have seen registered mail be delivered unsigned, or stamped “RECEIVED”, or signed by someone other than the intended recipient. Whether this indicates some sort of conspiracy between USPS and IRS, “special” policy, or just postal sloppiness/laziness, I don’t know.
    Within the next week I’ll test your theory, Al, with a piece of registered mail and report back the results here.

     
  13. Jim on Oregon

    November 14, 2013 at 4:33 PM

    Regarding an employee “signing” the return receipt on behalf of the addressed “officer/official”, I have made written demands to the local postmaster to do whatever it takes to get the signature I paid for, whether it be the actual addressee or actual evidence of delegation of authority to sign on behalf of that addressee.

    You paid for it. It is necessary for evidence. The USPS (they are NOT the USPO, another problem with using organic registered mail) is obligated to perform on their contractual duty to provide a signature. NOT a “Received” stamp. They will get you a signature if you demand it from your local postmaster. Demand to talk to the postmaster himself, not a clerk.

    Use the postal people to perform. I believe that is the proper “next step” in exhausting your administrative remedy here.

     
  14. Hummble1

    November 14, 2013 at 11:43 PM

    If you want to give them notice, simply do a public notice at the court house. “Ignorance is no excuse”

     
  15. Jethro!

    January 7, 2014 at 10:24 PM

    Al,

    I can report that “Internal Revenue Service” did accept registered mail from me, and I did receive the “green card” back as evidence. However, there were two troubling things about the “green card” I got back:

    1) It was unsigned — just stamped “RECEIVED”. My letter was addressed to an individual, and I paid for that piece of mail to be delivered into that person’s hands directly. Part of the reason for my letter was to determine whether such person even exists — does that question remain unanswered, or has the Post Office, in fact, answered it conclusively in the negative?
    And if someone sends me registered mail, may I just pull out my stamp and also stamp it “RECEIVED”?

    2) The return address on the green card was very specific to my venue, that is one of the Union states. However, somebody hand-wrote it what appears to be a territorial venue underneath mine (e.g. “New York, NY 10101”). Could this be tampering with mail, especially when I am utilizing it to create admissible evidence of my proper venue?

     
    • Adask

      January 8, 2014 at 11:41 PM

      1) It’s good to know that at least some Registered Mail are received and green cards may still be returned. I’m going to guess that the Domestic Mail Manual requires the green card to be signed, not just stamped.

      But why wasn’t the green card signed?

      2) The answer may be that the return address (to you) on the green card was changed–perhaps fraudulently; perhaps unlawfully. If it’s illegal to change that address, WHO changed it? It may be that some USPS employee changed that address to speed the green card on its way. But it might also be that the IRS employee who stamped the green card “received” may have been the person who changed the address. If changing that address is a criminal offence, you can see why he wouldn’t want to sign his name to the green card and identify himself. Doing so would be tantamount to a bank robber leaving his business card at the scene of every bank her robbed.

       
      • Jethro!

        January 10, 2014 at 9:55 AM

        I received some clarification from the Post Office regarding “issue 1)”. There is a box on the green card that says “Restricted Delivery?”. You must check the “Yes” box next to it and pay an extra fee (around $4-5) to ensure that it is only delivered to, and signed by, the intended recipient.

        But this still would not explain why it would not be signed by at least someone who could be identified.

         
  16. Big M

    March 31, 2014 at 10:33 AM

    First off, EVERYBODY has the right to refuse mail. Second, the IRS is NOT a government agency.

    And Crandal, you should just stop playing their “income” tax game. There is no liability for “income” taxes, and nothing anywhere says that anybody is required to do anything in connection with “income” taxes. If you disagree, please show any law that requires anybody to file, pay, sign IRS forms under Penalty of Perjury, etc. Believe me, neither you nor the IRS can do so.

     
  17. Roy

    August 3, 2014 at 8:31 AM

    I would like to know if anyone sends copies of what they have sent to the IRS along to your Senators? The reason I do it is that way the Senators can’t claim that they don’t whats going on. Now I realize that they most likely will not help you but it may be more evidence in your file also the agent would have to answer the Senators, becase what ever they send you the Senators would get a copy. If you have material in your favor it may make it harder to refute if they know a Senator is going to need a copy also.

     

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