America’s Economic Dilemma II

11 Feb

A Bonfire of Paper-Debt Savings [courtesy Google images]

A Bonfire of Paper-Debt Savings
[courtesy Google images]

I recently published an article on this blog entitled “America’s Economic Dilemma”.  In that article, I essentially argued that:

1) because we live in an economy that relies on paper-debt instruments as a form of wealth, there’s no way to cancel the existing National Debt without also canceling all of the wealth that’s currently stored in the form of U.S Bonds;

2) the National Debt is too great to be repaid, won’t be repaid and must sooner or later cause both the paper debt and the correlative paper assets to be destroyed;

3) the economy can’t function without some form of assets; and, therefore,

4) we be screwed.

I.e., we certainly can’t repay the existing debt in full, but we also can’t allow the debt to be cancelled without also cancelling billions of dollars’ worth of paper assets (savings) on which we are all dependent.  Therefore, we are ensnared in a “dilemma” in which we’re darned if we do and darned if we don’t.

Apparently, I didn’t express my argument with sufficient clarity in my first “Economic Dilemma” article.  A number or readers disputed my argument.

•   For example, on February 6,A.D. 2014, one of my readers (“Collin”) added a comment on this blog which declared in part that,

The one and ONLY answer to the debt problem is to declare it null and void because of FRAUD! It is fraud because it is mathematically impossible to repay! It cannot be repaid because the interest is never created on the loan and that is fraud! And fraud voids all! If we don’t void all out of thin air debt the bankers will own almost EVERYTHING! And we will be homeless slaves! They have a license to counterfeit! Can I counterfeit the money to repay the loan? Why not? If we even attempt to repay a impossible debt (the national debt) all we do is show our ignorance! The way to fix this mess is so simple a 3rd grader can figure it out! We void the fraudulent debt! and everyone keeps ALL the items they have so called debt on! And then we start to use a debt free currency and / or gold and silver! And then we will have a robust economy like never before — OR WE LET THE BANKERS STEAL EVERYTHING!”

Collin seemed to have missed my fundamental point:  We can’t cancel the debt without also canceling the correlative assets.  Canceling the existing National Debt is somewhat like cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

He wasn’t alone.

•  On February 7th, “cynthia” commented,

“Why not simply forgive [the debt]? What of Public Law 73-10?”

I replied,

You can bomb the debt, burn the debt or even “forgive” the debt, but it won’t do any immediate good.

My point is that we’re trapped by our fiat currency, debt-based monetary system and even fractional reserve banking.  We can’t repudiate the debt without destroying the value of correlative paper debt instruments that we treat as “assets”.  Insofar as we “forgive” the debt, we destroy the correlative paper assets. Insofar as we destroy paper assets, we destroy the “capital” that’s necessary to keep this system afloat.

No matter what sort of “happy face” we put on our predicament, we be screwed. We can’t fully repay the debt because it has grown too large, and we can’t repudiate/restructure/forgive/default on any of that debt without also destroying the correlative paper “assets”.

We are figuratively caught in a situation similar to that of a man whose house is infested with termites and the only way he can get rid of them is to set fire to his house. If we don’t set fire to the house, the termites will destroy it. If we set fire to the house to destroy the termites, we must also destroy the house. We are darned if we do, and darned if we don’t.

If we had a legitimate and constitutional monetary system based on gold and silver, we could forgive/repudiate/restructure/default on some or all of the debt and the tangible gold and silver would still remain in our economy. Some creditors would be temporarily ruined, but the monetary assets would remain and the economy would therefore survive and even prosper.

However, because we were fool enough to allow the institution of a fiat, paper, debt-based monetary system, we can’t eliminate any of the debt without also vaporizing a correlative amount of paper “assets”. We can’t “forgive” the debts without also destroying the correlative paper “assets”.

And yet, we must default on some, most or all the debt because it’s too big to be repaid in full. When that default takes place (no matter what name we use to describe it), this nation will be suddenly impoverished. We will remain impoverished until:  1) we establish a new monetary system; and 2) we work hard enough under this monetary system to generate some significant amount of savings. Then, we will see a national “recovery”. Until then, we will be forced to endure some very difficult times.

It seems virtually impossible that the American people would be dumb enough to try to replace a failed debt-based monetary system with another debt-based monetary system. We can’t be dumb enough to replace our green currency with a new-and-improved pink currency–can we?

But who can say? When it comes to American politics, I put no treason beyond the power of our politicians, and no stupidity past the greedy, gimme-something-for-nothing general public.

Still, I believe that in the midst of the coming economic trauma, the people (and maybe even the politicians) will be forced to recognize the error of their fiat, paper currency system’s ways and therefore reestablish a new monetary system based on tangible assets (like gold or silver) rather than intangible promises to pay (debt).  I think the reestablishment of a gold/silver based currency is virtually inevitable.

Of course, the U.S. and/or global government might try to pass off a new digital currency similar to Bitcoins to replace our current paper currency. But in the end, even an officially-approved “Bitcoin” would be just another fiat, debt-based currency. It might buy us a little time, but it would be just as certain to fail as our current debt-based currency is certain to fail.

In the end, the coming economic debacle will force Americans (no matter what we might prefer) to reestablish an asset-based (presumably gold/silver) monetary system as well as individual independence and self-reliance, and a relatively small, limited government that can’t spend on every idiotic program, welfare and subsidy that can currently be conceived by any politician. People who are addicted to government welfare or subsidies, or are otherwise too old, too young, too stupid, too ignorant, or too lazy to work are going to have one helluva hard time. They will cry, they will scream and they will riot as they demand that “somebody” restore their free lunches. But it won’t do any good–the free lunches will be gone. In a gold/silver based monetary system, if you don’t work or have family to support you, you won’t eat. If you do work, you could prosper like we did in the 1950s and 1960s.

I don’t know, can’t know, how bad the economy may become if/when the current debt-based monetary system fails. My “dire warnings” may exaggerate the extent of the coming trauma. But if it turns that my warnings are exaggerated, there’s nothing to say that my warnings are impossible. Again, the worst-case scenario is, by definition, the least likely scenario–but it’s still a possible scenario.

The National Debt of the US government, and even the total debt of the American people is too great to be repaid in full. I guesstimate that at least 80%, probably 90% of the current debt can’t/won’t be paid. If my guesstimate is roughly correct, most of our debts can’t be paid and therefore won’t be paid. When the moment arrives when government and the American people must admit they are insolvent and even bankrupt, much of the paper debt will disappear but so will much of our illusory paper “assets“. If we repudiate 80% of the American debt, we will also repudiate 80% of America’s paper “assets”.

I’m not smart enough to even imagine how this economy might continue without most of the current, illusory paper “assets”. Once the debt disappears and the paper “assets” disappear, we’ll suffer at least 5 years, maybe 10 years, of the “Greater Depression”. That suffering will last until we: 1) reestablish a gold/silver based monetary system; 2) reestablish the sort of mentality that accepts the fact that we have no right to “entitlements” paid for by someone else; and 3) reestablish a genuine “work ethic” wherein everyone knows he/she must work or go hungry; and 4) rebuild our gold treasury so as to have enough gold to support an asset-based monetary system.

I can’t imagine that this period of “reestablishment” will be easy, painless or brief. We’re headed into an earthly purgatory and should arrive there, not so long from now.

•  On February 9, 2014 “tom” wrote,

“Alfred raised a good inquisitive question with this article but his ponderings as how to solve the problem are wrong whereas Collin has the correct answer.”

First, the allegation that my “ponderings” concerning the current economic problems have offered a “solution” that is “wrong” is false insofar as my proposed “solution” is intended to be applied by all Americans.

Instead, my “ponderings” are intended to convey the opinion that (if we define “solution” as “some sort of painless remedy”) there is no “solution” possible for at least 90% of Americans. That’s why I referred to our “economic dilemma”.  We’re darned if we do and darned if we don’t.

The only “solution” that I’ve offered is for the 1% to 3% of Americans who have: 1) eyes to see and ears to hear; and 2) some savings (wealth) accumulated in the form of paper debt instruments like cash, bank accounts, pension funds, 401(k)s, stocks and bonds.  I believe that such people could minimize their exposure to the approaching economic debacle by moving their wealth (savings) out of paper debt instruments and putting it into something tangible like land, tools, guns, bullets, food, gold and silver.

Almost anything tangible will be better than flimsy paper debt-instruments.  However, I believe that gold and silver will be the best refuge from the coming moment when the some, most or all of the value of the paper debt-instruments is publicly repudiated.   I could be mistaken, but I regard that moment to be inevitable and easily possible at almost any time.

Contrary to “tom’s” comment, my solution to the current debt problem is not wrong, because I’ve offered no solution for at least 90% of the American people.

Second, according to Collin, “The one and ONLY answer to the debt problem is to declare it null and void because of FRAUD!”

Collin essentially argues that the only solution to the debt problem is repudiate all the National Debt debt with something like a biblical Jubilee or some such.   Collin justifies that repudiation on the fact that the National Debt is substantially based on fraud.  Collin is right.  The National Debt is largely based on the fraud that’s inherent in all fiat monetary systems.

But it doesn’t matter if he’s “right”.

The fact that the monetary system is based on fiat fraud does not change, mitigate or deny the fact that millions of Americans have stored their real wealth/savings in the form of government’s fraudulent debt-instruments.   Yes, those millions of Americans may have been fools to trust the government’s debt-instruments, but is that enough reason to wipe out all of their savings when we repudiate the National Debt?

Answer:  Yes.  Insofar as any of us play the fool, we can be fairly punished by making us pay the fool’s price:  poverty.

But we’re not talking about the one foolish grasshopper who fiddled away his summer and life while the multitude of ants worked hard to store up enough food to get them through the winter.  The one grasshopper played the fool and it cost him his life.  I get the moral message of that fable.

We’re talking about a nation of grasshoppers who’ve played the fool while only a handful of ants worked hard enough to gather enough food to get them through the winter.  If we cancel the national debt, we’ll also wipe out the remaining savings for the “grasshopper nation”. That foolish nation will at least suffer and possibly perish.

I see the justice in calling the grasshoppers to pay for their foolishness.  But, insofar as I am a member of the grasshopper nation, I don’t want to watch my neighbors suffer and possibly perish for their (our) foolishness.   I have a hard time accepting the moral message of that reality.

Therefore, I’m looking for a “solution” to the National Debt problem that will allow all of the grasshoppers to somehow avoid the pain that I suspect is coming.  But I can’t find that solution.  I can’t imagine that solution.

Collin supports his argument that we simply void all of the debt by proposing that, “The way to fix this mess is so simple a 3rd grader can figure it out! We void the fraudulent debt! and everyone keeps ALL the items they have so called debt on!”

That’s a great and beguiling idea.  Just think:  you could lose your car payment and keep your car.  You could lose your mortgage and keep your house.  Got any debt on your credit cards?  It would be gone but you’d get to keep all the stuff you bought on credit.

Collin’s fundamental argument is that because there are elements of fraud in our fiat currency, we the debtors should be entitled to keep things we haven’t earned or paid for.  But, that’s theft, isn’t it?  Insofar as I can justify being to be entitled to something I haven’t earned and paid for, am I a moral genius or a smooth-talking thief?

More, is America well-served by allowing anyone to rob—even if that robbery is based on someone else’s fraud?

And who are we robbing when we wipe out the debt?  The Federal Reserve?  The federal government?

If that were true, I might be willing to go along.  The Fed and the feds are mostly just a bunch of crooks.  They’ve been robbing us for decades. Why shouldn’t we rob them?

But, if we cancelled the National Debt, we wouldn’t be robbing the Fed and the feds, we’d be robbing individuals and corporations that had entrusted their savings into U.S. Bonds.  We’d be robbing our neighbors.  We might even be unwittingly agreeing to rob ourselves.

When Collin proposes that after the debt is simply cancelled, “everyone keeps ALL the items they have so called debt on!”, he means that we get to keep our houses (if we have a mortgage), our cars (if we have a car payment), and all the stuff we’ve purchased with our MasterCard by not yet paid off.  But the one “item” that Collin may have overlooked is our savings.

OK—under Collin’s proposal, all the debt is cancelled and I get to keep the house, car and credit card stuff I owe money on.

But what happens to my savings account?  What happens to my pension fund?  What happens to the value of the U.S. Bonds and even stocks that I have tucked away in my safety deposit box?  What about my pension plan and hopes of collecting So-So Security when I retire.   Those are also debts, but they’re not debts I owe, they are debts that are owed to me.

I am not the debtor in relation to my savings.  I am the creditor.

So, when Collin generously suggests that we simply void all debts, he is voiding all of your and my savings.

Great!  When the debts are all cancelled,  I get to keep my house, car and credit card stuff without further payments—but I also lose my bank account, pension fund, So-So Security, bonds and probably stocks and cash.

Even if the value of my house and car far exceed the value of my personal savings, I’m not sure that’s “such a deal”.

I believe that the consequence of losing everyone’s savings (that are stored in debt-based monetary instruments) will, on balance, be far more devastating than any benefit gained by cancelling all of our mortgages and car payments.  I don’t believe the economy can hold together if we wipe out all of our savings kept in the form of debt-based instruments.

Collin might respond by saying, “No, no, no!  You don’t get it!  We’ll only cancel the debts owed by the people to the banks—but we’ll still force the banks to pay whatever debts they owe us!”

OK!  Sounds great.

Except for one little detail: If I and the rest of America are no longer making mortgage, car and credit card payments to the bank, where will the bank get the currency needed to repay the debt it owes me for my savings account?

Remember, we have a fractional reserve banking system which allows the bank to keep just 10% of its deposit obligations in the vault.  If the bank owes $1 billion in debt on its customers’ bank deposits, but it’s only got $100 million in the vault, and there’s no more money coming into the bank in the form of mortgage, car and credit card payments, it looks to me as if depositors will lose about 90% of their savings and the bank (all banks, and all credit card operations) may be forced to close.

The financial system will collapse, the economy will collapse, and there we’ll all be:  sitting in our free homes and free cars without any cash, jobs, electrical power or food.

It may well be that, as Collin claims, “The way to fix this mess is so simple a 3rd grader can figure it out!”   But I would very much like to meet that “3rd grader” because he must be a whole lot smarter than I am, ever was or probably could be.

I can’t see or even imagine a viable solution to our National Debt problem that isn’t painful and perhaps devastating to our economy and even our national integrity.

•  If there is a solution, it must include a way to wipe out the debt without also wiping out the assets (savings).  Therefore, all I’m asking is for someone (even 3rd graders) to explain to me How they propose to cancel all the paper debt without also canceling all the real wealth (savings) that’s been foolishly stored in the form of paper debt-instruments?  If anyone can answer that question in terms I’m able to understand, I will be enormously grateful.

You have to remember that our FRNs, although intrinsically worthless, are nevertheless a store of value (wealth) for most people.  The FRNs may be worthless, but the value, the savings, that they’ve been entrusted to preserve is not.

Unfortunately, storing your real wealth (savings) in the form of FRNs (debt-instruments) is like storing wealth in the form of cobwebs.  The cobwebs are so damned fragile that if the wind blows or the wife sweeps, they can disappear.  When they do, the wealth (savings) that they represent will also disappear.

If we cancel the debt represented by our US Bonds/cobwebs, we also cancel the underlying and real wealth (savings) being “held” in those debt instruments.

•  Suppose I’ve worked hard, lived frugally, and saved $250,000 over the years.  That $250,000 represents the real saving that were generated by my hard work—by my blood, sweat and tears.  That $250,000 is a measure of my former labor and intelligence.  The wealth stored in those flimsy paper Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs) is real wealth.  But the medium (FRNs and other paper-debt instruments) I’m using to store my wealth is flimsy, unreliable and subject to manipulation by debtors (the government) who want to destroy debt so they don’t have to admit that they are bankrupt and without legal power.

No matter how stupid and naive I may be, I am still a legitimate creditor.  I have lived responsibly and within my means.  I have therefore generated savings from the income earned with my labor.  I want to be paid for the real wealth that I’ve squirreled away in FRNs and other paper debt-instruments.

But, government, on the other hand, is the world’s #1 debtor.  They have acted irresponsibly for decades, saved nothing, spent every dime they had, and every dollar they could borrow.  The government has no savings (wealth) and therefore has virtually no interest in protecting the value of FRNs and other paper-debt instruments (like US Bonds)

Instead, the government has an interest in reducing the value of those FRNs and US Bonds in order to allow it to repay its debts with ever-cheaper dollars.  The government—in order to avoid admitting its own bankruptcy and also to avoid paying its debts—wants to continue to degrade the value of the FRNs or otherwise get away with defaulting on its paper debt-instruments (US Bonds).

Government wants to rob me and every other creditor in the country.

Who are these other creditors?  Well, they’re not only the big American and foreign banks.  They’re not just the Federal Reserve.  America’s creditors also include everyone who has any savings that they’ve invested in banks, pension funds, So-So Security accounts, stocks and bonds.   Government (the world’s #1 debtor) wants to rob all of those creditors and can be depended upon to do so.

Look at government’s track record.  Since A.D. 1971, the value of the dollar has fallen by over 95%.  If your grandparents created a $100,000 trust for you back in A.D. 1971, and deposited $100,000 into that trust for your benefit, the original principal ($100,000) would now be worth about $5,000 in terms of A.D. 1971 purchasing power.   You and your grandparents would’ve been robbed by inflation of 95% of the real wealth your grandparent’s earned and saved for you—all in less than 45 years.

How’d the government perpetrate that theft?  By causing steady inflation.  That inflation and resulting theft of American creditors’ principal could not have taken place for nearly 45 years if it wasn’t government policy to rob its creditors.

This robbery wasn’t hard because, despite all of his other good qualities, your grandfather was fool enough to trust the government and the fiat monetary system.   Grandpa stored his real wealth (savings from his previous efforts) in the flimsy form of FRNs, US Bonds and other debt-instruments.   This is equivalent to winning $1 million in the lottery and storing the cash in a pile in your front yard. If anyone walks by your house and sees all that cash, you’ll probably be robbed.  If you want to protect the $1 million you won, you need a real safe—not pile in the front yard.

Likewise, if grandpa wanted to protect his wealth (his savings from his hard work) he needed a real money (gold or silver) not fiat dollars; he needed a real, tangible investment (like gold & silver) that was a reliable “store of value”—not an illusory “promise to pay” seen in all paper deb-instruments.

If stealing your wealth is easy because you keep your wealth in the form of paper debt-instruments, stealing your wealth is also necessary since gov-co is broke, insolvent and bankrupt and can’t pay its debts.  As I’ve said for several years, what can’t be paid, won’t be paid.

One way or another, government is going to repudiate the National Debt.  That debt problem has finally grown so enormous, that whether government intends to pay its debts is irrelevant. Government can’t pay its debts.  It’s technically impossible.  Therefore the debts won’t be paid and the only remaining mystery is when will government admit it’s insolvent.

•  Government can’t, won’t and doesn’t want to pay its debts.

Sooner or later, under one pretext or another, government will admit that it can’t pay its debts and default on most of that debt.

When that happens, what do you think will happen to people like me who are 68 years old and penniless because I was dumb enough to store the real wealth (savings) that I’d accumulated over the years in the form of paper debt instruments like US bonds, private stocks, bank accounts, pension funds, 401(k)s or even social security? Do think I’m still young enough to go back to work digging ditches or repairing roofs?  When the government defaults on its debts and my savings are wiped out, I may soon starve to death in the dark.

Some of you may be young enough that you don’t have any savings and so you don’t mind if the world’s savings (capital) disappear.  Such youngsters might simply say, Well, who cares?  If the old farts die, that’s their problem.

So it may seem.

But losing my saving is not just my problem.

If the financial system collapses and wipes out virtually all of my paper assets and wipes out virtually all of the paper assets of the other creditors who’ve had sufficient talent, brains and blessing to acquire some savings, where will the rest of you young fools find a job?

I’ll bet that 90% (probably more) of the businesses in this country are debtors who are run on credit and therefore depend on being able to borrow currency from old farts who have actually saved some of the real wealth they generated and earned during their lives.

If so, when we old fools lose our savings to a collapse of the paper debt-instrument monetary system, we may starve to death in the dark within another month or two.  But what do you think will happen to all of the young fools who have no savings, but who expect to keep working at businesses that depend on borrowing currency to keep operating?

Guess what, children?  There you’ll be without any old folks to support, but also without any of the old folks’ savings to borrow to keep your boss’s business running and your job viable. Without your own savings or someone else’s savings, and without a job—what do you think will happen to you?  If I’m going to starve to death in the dark within 30 to 60 days, you’re not likely to last much longer than another 90 to 120.

•  Those of you who are without savings can’t survive without those of us who have real savings to lend.

Sure, if we creditors lose all of our savings, the government could simply start printing ever more paper currency to issue through banks, welfare, debit cards, etc.  But what will the value (purchasing power) of that currency be?  Without real savings to support the fiat currency, you’ll see hyper-inflation wherein many of you will not only be unemployed, you’ll see prices rise daily while you beg for pennies in the streets or succumb on violence to steal your food.

The point I’m trying to communicate is that paper debts and paper assets are two sides of the same coin.   That coin is made out of paper mache’.  If it catches fire, it burns to ashes.  If it gets wet, it dissolves to mush. If you handle it roughly, it crumbles.   If anything happens to destroy that coin, all of the real wealth that coin represents will also be destroyed.

Most importantly, you can’t lose the one side of your paper mache’ coin without also losing the other.   If the head (debt) disappear (is repudiated), the tail (assets) will also disappear.

For me, that’s the critical point.  We can’t cancel the National Debt without also destroying a correlative amount of paper wealth.

Therefore, I believe that the National Debt problem is insurmountable.  We may be able to postpone it for a while longer, but if we cancel the paper debt, we also cancel the paper assets.  If we cancel the paper assets, the economy must collapse.

Again, if Collin or anyone else can explain to me how they can cancel the paper debts without also cancelling the correlative paper assets, I would be appreciative and even honored to hear that explanation.

But, until someone can teach me how to cancel the paper debts without alsot cancelling the paper assets, I’m going to insist that we (90% or more of America) be screwed.   We are trapped in a “dilemma” from which I can’t even imagine an easy or painless escape.

•  Finally, one concluding point (or perhaps “points”).

The U.S. government is the world’s biggest debtor, bar none.   The U.S. government is also incapable of paying the existing National Debt.   Therefore, the U.S. government wants to repudiate the existing debt.

Those of us (like Collin and “tom”) who argue that repudiating the existing National Debt is “the one and ONLY answer to the debt problem” are singing the government’s song.  They are supporting the government’s desire to repudiate all government debts.  Whenever anyone advocates repudiating the National Debt, I’m sure the government is secretly cheering “Go!  Go!  Go!!!”

The government wants to repudiate the National Debt.  They’re just looking for a sufficient pretext to do so.  They’re looking for an excuse to repudiate the National Debt that can’t be pinned on the government.

I don’t doubt that much of the National Debt will be repudiated simply because it’s mathematically impossible for us to pay it.  But I don’t advocate that repudiation because I believe that doing so will destroy most creditors’ wealth and render the economy without savings, without readily-accessible capital and perhaps inoperable for several years.

Because we were fool enough to accept a fiat, debt-based currency, we are now caught between the rock and the hard place.  We can’t pay the debt and we dare not repudiate the debt.  What will we do?

Again, we’re trapped in a “dilemma” from which I see no easy or painless escape.

I advocate no national solution to the National Debt because I don’t believe any such solution is possible.  For now, the only “solution” is to “kick the can down the road” by issuing more and more debt—which is exactly what government is doing.  But any fool can see that “solving” the National Debt problem by issuing more debt is like trying to extinguish a fire by drowning it in gasoline.

I only advocate an individual solution for those who believe this analysis is roughly correct and who have savings.  That solution (for a few) is to get out of paper debt-instruments as quickly as possible and get into a tangible form of wealth that can’t be destroyed by government’s manipulation or debt repudiation.  A handful of Americans may understand and implement that solution, but the vast majority of Americans will not.

I believe that those who cannot or do not implement that individual “solution” are headed for a difficult and painful economic period.

But, so are those who do implement that “solution”.  This won’t be an easy time for anyone.  However, for those who implement the “individual solution,” the coming problems will be mitigated.  They’ll have trouble, but if they have even a few dozen ounces of gold, they’ll be much better off than their neighbors.

In the end, there is no real “solution” to the National Debt problem but there may be “mitigation” in the sense that some of us may have real savings in a tangible form and may be less exposed to the trauma than others.

Some argue that if we allow the debt to persist, we lose our future to interest rates that are impossible to pay.  They’re correct.

But I argue, that if we repudiate our debt, we lose our past due to lost savings acquired by past work.

Either way, we lose.  At least, either way, the vast majority of us lose.

And, therein lies our “economic dilemma”.


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30 responses to “America’s Economic Dilemma II

  1. palani

    February 11, 2014 at 5:59 PM

    According to Bouvier

    JOINDER OF PARTIES TO ACTIONS. It is a rule in actions ex contractu that all who have a legal interest in the contract, and no others, must join in action founded on a breach of such contract; whether the parties are too many or too few, it is equally fatal.

    Considering what happens to creditors or debtors leads ultimately to a form of joinder in which you must take one side or the other.

    View the controversy as one that belongs to the commercial plane. If you should be a debtor or creditor in the commercial plane then certainly the quality of the financial system ‘belongs’ to you. If you are entirely non-commercial (not a debtor – not a creditor) then what do you care? What happens to people who who get sucked into this trap belongs to them and nobody else. If you find yourself in this commercial plane/venue perhaps the best solution is to figure out how to get yourself out.

    There is no solution short of slavery for those in the commercial venue. They must like it or they wouldn’t be there.

  2. cynthia

    February 11, 2014 at 7:17 PM

    is this a viable option

  3. Jetlag

    February 11, 2014 at 7:59 PM

    National debts are not all-or-nothing affairs in which the original contract is either exactly followed or completely rejected as if it never existed (i.e. repudiated).

    The most common course in situations like this – where some sort of default is inevitable – is a third option: debt restructuring, which is a form of damage control.

    One of the main reasons to restructure a national debt is to establish which creditors are paid off with high priority, and which creditors are paid off with low priority.

    In the case of the United States, this measure would preserve certain critical assets, like savings accounts and pension funds, while preventing cannibalization of our nation by the international Money Power.

  4. Collin

    February 12, 2014 at 4:20 AM

    “WICKED DEBT FRAUD” The one and ONLY answer to the debt problem is to declare it null and void because of FRAUD! It is fraud because it is mathematically impossible to repay ! It can not be repaid because the interest is never created on the loan and that is fraud ! And fraud voids all ! If we don’t void all out of thin air debt the bankers will own almost EVERYTHING ! And we will be homeless slaves ! They have a license to counterfeit ! Can I counterfeit the money to repay the loan ? Why not ? If we even attempt to repay a impossible debt (the national debt) all we do is show our ignorance ! The way to fix this mess is so simple a 3rd grader can figure it out ! We void the fraudulent debt! and everyone keeps ALL the items they have so called debt on ! And then we start to use a debt free currency and / or gold and silver ! And then we will have a robust economy like never before — OR WE LET THE BANKERS STEAL EVERYTHING !
    I was in about the third grade when the news was talking about the national debt and I asked my dad who do we owe money to and who could possibly be richer than the United States? and where did they get the money? And then my dad took a gulp off his beer and said we owe it to our self ! I said that’s the dumbest thing I ever heard of ! that’s like me borrowing from my right pocket and setting fire to the interest and putting the rest in my left pocket ! This was about 1972 ! But Dad was wrong! We owe it to international Bankers running the biggest Ponzi scheme on earth called The Federal reserve system! And yes it really is this simple ! The bankers have a shoe in on ALL loans they make ! All they have to do is stop lending and then start foreclosing on ALL debts!-meaning they now own everything that has a debt by having a license to counterfeit ! So we” 1″ keep getting fleeced by continuing to pay this fraudulent scheme ! OR” 2 “we declare ALL out of thin air debt NULL AND VOID because of FRAUD ! And we keep everything we have so called debt on! MOST people don’t get this part Every car, boat, house, machine, tool, farm,ect. has already been paid for by the fraudulent paper! So no one looses ! WE sure as hell cant give it to the banksters! (let them steal it) AND IT DOESENT MATTER IF YOU WANT TO REDUCE THE DEBT 99% ITS STILL UNPAYABLE! So when we void the FRAUD This will be the ultimate FRESH start for everyone ! Share this if you want THE solution to the WORLDS problems! If not everything will continue to get worse until we have HONEST DEBT FREE MONEY /and GOLD AND SILVER ! And there is plenty of gold and silver! just Divide the paper money (FRN) by the gold /silver and you have the value of them! NO MATTER WHAT IT COMES TO per OZ ! Then we would be happy to work for SAY A ONE OZ. SILVER COIN A day ! Because a one OZ. silver coin ( REAL MONEY ) will buy what $100 – $200 did before the reset! THINK ABOUT IT! This is what Scripture calls the jubilee ! “WICKED” Debt And the amount and size of the debt has nothing to do with it being mathematically impossible to pay This fraud is so “WICKED” that even a $10 loan is a Ponzi scheme here’s how it works ! I’m the new banks first customer ( CHUMP ) I borrow $10 @ 1% interest I now owe the bank $10.10 but ALL the money in the world is $10 the .10 cents doesn’t exist so some one else has to borrow some so called money and I have to find a way to get .10 cents from them so I can repay my loan ! Now say they borrowed $10 also now I somehow get .10 cents from them to pay my loan back ! But now he is short .20 cents to pay his loan ! so now you can see how a $100,000. house that will cost you $ 265,000 to pay off because you have to pay $165,000 in interest is a GIGANTIC PONZI SCHEME ! Now multiply that by millions of people in the U.S. and you can see how It turned into the monster debt we see today ! And for the loans that do get repaid multiple people have to default on there loans for you to pay off your loan ! NOW you can understand why we have a rapidly growing homeless problem ! Now that is a WICKED debt money system that we must declare Void !

    • Russell Arms

      June 29, 2015 at 1:51 AM

      @ Justice Martin V. Mahoney was murdered 6 months after he entered the Credit River Decision on the books of the Court…

      Daly based his defense on the argument that the bank had not actually loaned him any money but had simply created credit on its books. Daly argued that the bank had thus not given him anything of value and was not entitled to the property that secured the loan. The jury and the justice of the peace, Martin V. Mahoney, agreed with this argument. The jury returned a verdict for the defendant, and the Justice of the Peace declared that the mortgage was “null and void” and that the bank was not entitled to possession of the property.The Justice admitted in his order that his decision might run counter to provisions in the Minnesota Constitution and some Minnesota statutes, but contended that such provisions were “repugnant” to the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights in the Minnesota Constitution.
      The JURY and the justice of the peace, Martin V. Mahoney, agreed with this argument. The JURY returned a verdict for the defendant, and the Justice of the Peace declared that the mortgage was “null and void” and that the bank was not entitled to possession of the property

      SOooooooo THE JURY VERDICT MEANS ZILCH TOO !! So much for JURY POWER OR JURY NULLIFICATION. Doesn’t appear to MATTER ANYMORE !!. I wonder why?!?!? !!!!!!!

  5. Collin

    February 12, 2014 at 4:36 AM

    What Adask doesn’t get is the banks are already insolvent and are going to resort to bail ins under the dodd frank act/bill So if your not saving in gold and silver that is in your HANDS you will loose everything any way! The U.S. has over 200 TRILLION in debt and entitlements ! According to some ! And as I pointed out before the U.S. has already gone through two central BANK FAILURES IN THE PAST ! IF WE LISTEN TO Adask we will have to steal from our kid’s and Grandkid’s to TRY to keep this Fraud going ! And that is a total waste of our lives because 70% – 100% of our labor would be required to pay the Banker / Government Freeloading parasites !

    • Adask

      February 12, 2014 at 3:01 PM

      And what Collin doesn’t get (or refuses to get) is that millions of Americans have trusted real savings into these fraudulent debt instruments. No doubt the fraudulent debt instruments will be rendered void. It doubt that anything can prevent that inevitability.

      Nevertheless, I believe that inevitability will be as painful as the poverty, violence and criminality seen in Russia after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. Why? Because when you cancel all the debt, you not only cancel the debts that you owe, you cancel the debts that you are owed. The money you’ve deposited in your bank account is a debt owed to you. That’ll be cancelled right along with your car payment and mortgage. The money you’ve invested in stocks, bonds, pension accounts and So-So Security are also some of the debts that are owed to you and will necessarily be cancelled with all other debts.

      It may be that you don’t have any savings of investments so there aren’t any obvious debts that are owed to you. But, if so, you’ve probably got a job and your employer is dependent on borrowing money from the bank to continue to function. Once we shut down all the debts, the bank will be broke and unable to lend to your employer. Your employer will probably close his doors. Yes, you’ll own your home and your car debt-free, but you probably won’t have a job or any means of purchasing food, paying for your electric bill or buying gas for your car. So there you’ll sit in the dark, starving and perhaps celebrating the fact that even if you’re about to die, you’ll do so in the house or car that you finally own.

      I think that’s called “Pyrrhic Victory”.

      But even though our current paper-debt instruments (like fiat dollars, U.S. Bonds, bank accounts and pension accounts) are fraudulent, they nevertheless contain real wealth–the SAVINGS of millions of Americans. When those fraudulent debt-instruments are rendered void, trillions of dollars in REAL WEALTH (savings) will also disappear. When those savings disappear, our capitalist system will have virtually no capital and our economy will collapse and stay collapsed until we once again rebuild our savings.

      In the meantime (from the time the debt is cancelled until we rebuild our savings) the collapsed economy will cause millions to live in poverty and many (perhaps you, Collin and even your “3rd grader”) to die prematurely and perhaps violently. My complaint with this reality is that it creates a dilemma–we are forced to choose between ending the fraud that’s inherent in our financial system and allowing a 100 million or more to suffer in abject poverty and thousands (maybe millions) more to die.

      The police sometimes shoot up a car because they know it to be stolen or driven by serial killer or some such. Those kind of shoot outs may seem justified. But what if there are three children in the back seat? Is the shooting still sensible of justified?

      In the same sense, can we simply “shoot up” all of our debts because the debt-instruments are fraudulent but ignore the fact that those debt instruments (though fraudulent) still contain real wealth and real savings of millions of Americans?

      Yes, the medium is fraudulent; the packaging is fraudulent; the container is fraudulent–but they nevertheless hold real wealth (the savings accumulated by years and decades of hard work).

      I’m saying that the National Debt is one of these fraudulent media, packages or containers. It will inevitably perish under the weight of is fraud. But I’m also warning that cancelling the National Debt (although inevitable) will also destroy the real real wealth (savings) that has been deposited into that fraudulent container. Not all, but most of the treasury bonds that comprise the National Debt were purchased with currency that represents the savings of real people and institutions. When the fraudulent container (National Debt) is cancelled, all of those real savings are also destroyed. The result will be economic collapse and widespread poverty and possible death.

      I’m suggesting that letting millions of people die in poverty is a problem. Collin is saying, no, it’s not–let the dumb S.O.B.s starve to death in the dark.

      I’m suggesting that losing our savings will cause enormous trouble. Collin is saying, No, it’s all so “simple” that all we need is to own the houses and cars we haven’t actually paid for, and we’ll all be fine.

      I’m suggesting that even though I can’t imagine how we will avoid the coming tribulation, we should seek a way to do so. Collin says Damn the icebergs–full speed ahead!

      I’m saying that when all the debts (and all the savings) are rendered void, a lot of people will probably die and I’m searching (unsuccessfully) for a way to prevent that tragedy. Collin, is saying, Screw the bastards–let ’em all die.

      I’m suggesting that current medium of protecting our wealth is like a safe made out of paper mache’. Even though our “safes” look to be real, they are fraudulent and easily burned or broken into. Unfortunately, people have been foolish enough to store their real savings in these fraudulent, paper-mache’ safes. Collin says burn all the fraudulent “safes” without regard for the real savings that may be in them. I say that the fraudulent safes are surely destined to burn, but people should first get their savings out of them and place those savings in a real “safe” such as gold, silver, land, tools, guns, bullets, etc. Collin says Burn, baby, burn!

      Collin’s “simple” and “only” solution to the problem will accelerate this nation’s slide towards economic collapse and may get a lot of people killed. If his “3rd grader” doesn’t might getting the kids in his class killed, then maybe we should follow his lead and set fire to the school.

      But for those of us who believe that the solution is not so “simple” that a “3rd grader” can see it; for those of us who can see some of complexity and anticipate some of the human suffering that’s headed our way–it might still be a good idea to look for a solution other than void all the debt. If you’re ready for real chaos, and you don’t mind letting people (including you) die or even killing them, then, sure, let’s just void all the debt and let the devil take the hindmost.

      But if you’re not ready for chaos and death, you might want to rethink the overly simple idea of just canceling all the debt.

      Are we going to cancel the debt? Yes. The idea is not news to me. I’ve argued for five years that “What can’t be paid, won’t be paid.” The National Debt can’t be paid, won’t be paid, and will be cancelled–at least in large measure. I’m smart enough to see that inevitability and I have been for several years. But I’m also smart enough to see that when the National Debt is cancelled, the result will be an economic collapse and national tribulation that may rival that of the Civil War. I don’t see how that tribulation can be avoided, but I’m still looking for a way.

      Collin doesn’t mind the possibility of tribulation. He doesn’t appear to even consider that tribulation is possible. For him, all we need to find an earthly paradise is cancel the debt. Very simple. Also, very short-sighted.

      • collin

        February 12, 2014 at 3:48 PM

        No Adask Your way everyone that doesn’t own there home outright before the collapse WILL BE TOSED INTO THE STREET AND THE BANKERS NOW OWN ALMOST EVERYTHING ! My way THE PEOPLE at least OWN A HOME AND THERE BUISNESS AND THERE CARS ECT.AND CAN MAKE A FREASH START ! Your way the masses are homeless and staving in the streets WITH NO HOPE OF A FUTURE !

      • Jetlag

        February 12, 2014 at 4:14 PM


        Your suggestion of declaring the debt a fraud is an important element, but the full solution is a bit more complex, because the problem is complex.

        We also have the pensions and savings accounts to think about. Whatever happens, they must be protected. The way to do this, while also getting ourselves off the hook of the frausters, is through a SELECTIVE declaration that the debt is “null and void”, a.k.a. debt restructuring.

        This is how America survives its unpayable debt problem with pensions and savings accounts intact.

    • Adask

      February 12, 2014 at 8:25 PM

      I get all of that, Collin. But what I also get is that the loss of however much of our national SAVINGS as are represented by our National Debt will also cause an enormous and perhaps greater loss than the actual fraud. I am saying that there is no painless solution. You are saying there is only one solution, but you neglect to inform us if that solution will be painless or perhaps even lethal.

      I’m advocating that you’re “simple solution” won’t or shouldn’t come to pass. I’m simply observing that your “simple solution” may cause just much catastrophe as might a continuation of the current system.

      I’m not advocating that the fraud be continued. But I am recognizing that some reasonable people decide to try to continue the fraud because, to stop it now, guarantees catastrophe, NOW. So they choose to kick the can down the road. I am observing that their decision to procrastinate and avoid facing reality may be evidence of weakness, but such weakness is not uncommon in mankind. I’m not justifying the S.O.B.s–I’m simply saying that we are all caught in a dilemma where we’re darned if we do and darned if we don’t.

      You advocate a “simple solution”. You say or imply that your simple solution” will not only be relatively painless, but even beneficial since all of “de common folk” will come out ahead by wiping out all of their debts and leaving them with ownership of their homes, land and cars.

      I claim that there’s no solution whatsoever (at least no painless solution) other than an economic collapse and then a slow, painful rebuilding of he economy and our real savings. I claim that any proposal to “simply” void the debt will lead to disaster because it must also wipe out the correlative paper assets that ultimately represent decades of SAVINGS of our LABOR.

      I don’t doubt that your “simple solution” will be the “final solution” for our National Debt problem. But I also predict that in the midst of that “final solution,” the nation will be impoverished and may be subjected to great violence and perhaps even a threat of national disintegration.

      I suggest that plans to celebrate when the National Debt is repudiated be put on hold until we find out for sure if the real consequence will be a calamity.

  6. tom

    February 12, 2014 at 12:58 PM

    Comments to your points:
    1) I have to disagree with instruments = wealth. Kind of like the vehicle title vs. actual automobile (reciept). The instrument can disappear but the wealth will remain although now it will more likely have its true value reassigned minus arbitrary values put on it through it being “in the system”.

    Which yes, can be frightening because so called “value” is being destroyed but the wealth is transferred to a different form and at the same time can become more affordable expenditure wise (true labor output) because many regulations, “laws”, “ordinances”, etc… are now taken away which opens up opportunities for better efficiencies.

    Anytime there is a “change of order” its usually a good thing as laws tend to convert back into basics of what was always there (embedded in your God given DNA) , call it what you may: “law of the jungle”, “patriarchal society”, “Scriptural Law”, etc…, It pulls away the mask (persona) of these artificial creations and stomps them to the ground, real men have no reason to fear this.

    The problem occurs when those wielding the current levers realize the shaky foundations are beginning to crumble (economic collapse) faster than they can make repairs so they revert to instincts which brought them to positions they currently hold, these are: self intrest, lies, theft, and will even try to incite murderous rampage through gullible dupes.

    Godly men are able to face these adversaries with a calm and confident assurance that eventually conditions will settle down- people will begin to work and create as men in general always naturally do this -striving for peaceful enterprise.

    If conditions do not allow this, they know this life is not so valuable that they will live on thier knees and will sacrifice all if necessary. Key is to be wise, avoid being ignorantly incited and therefore being nuetralized or worse. Only God can truly help in this regard. We have examples of the American revolution (actually a pretty mild war), soviet breakup, and China’s embrace of free enterprise where the old order gives way in a peaceful manner. On the other hand you have the communist revolutions, fall of Jerusalem, and Civil War as very bloody events.

    2) Agree.

    3 &4) There are all kinds of assets, most important are the ones in your mind. Real wealth is even being created in a virtual world. I remember years ago what it was like to try and open up a business. You had to have an office, secretary, typewriters, pay the utilities, answering machines, fuel to drive to the office, paper, pencils, etc… Today I can do most of that stuff on my phone or a small notebook. The internet has let the cat out the bag and people from now on will strive to be free unless decieved otherwise.

    I love it. Seeing the withering death of the decieving newspapers, magazines, tv networks; society breakin up into little enclaves rather than centralized nerve centers; so called “schools” (forced concentration camps) being challenged and people going online to get back only as much as they want to invest learning. Many many more examples, brave new world, sure its frightening at times but we are definitely not screwed. I guess it just a matter of what you allow your mind to think.

    • Adask

      February 12, 2014 at 7:53 PM

      When you disagree with my alleged claim that “instruments = wealth,” you are misunderstanding my fundamental point. I do not claim that the paper-debt-instruments ARE wealth. I claim they are fraudulent. But I do claim that they CONTAIN wealth. Therefore I am attempting to help people understand that when you destroy the fraudulent CONTAINER by repudiating all debt, you also destroy the REAL WEALTH that is contained within that “container”.

      Let’s say you’ve invested $100,000 in a U.S. Treasury bond. That bond is a fraudulent, paper-debt-instrument. That’s true. Even the $100,000 may have paid to purchase that bond could be construed as fraudulent. But the fact remains that you acquired that $100,000 bond with the $100,000 in cash that resulted from your SAVING some significant number of hours of YOUR WORK. Maybe you worked for 20 years to save up enough of your LABOR to allow you to purchase the $100,000 bond, or maybe you’re rich and you only had to save you labor a single week to purchase that bond. But, at bottom, you did not invest $100,000 in cash in that bond, you invested some significant amount of YOUR LABOR in that bond.

      In retrospect, it may be sad that you were stupid enough to trade your LABOR for $100,000 in fiat currency (a fraudulent, debt-paper-instrument), but you did. It may be sad that you were dumb enough to trade $100,000 in fraudulent paper currency for another fraudulent paper-debt-instrument (the $100,000 bond), but you did.

      Thus, when Collin is finally declared to be “king” and he unilaterally cancels all the debt, he will render your $100,000 bond worthless and, in doing so, he will also thereby destroy however much of YOUR LABOR that you have foolishly stored in that fraudulent bond. Get that? Yes, the bond is fraudulent. Yes; the cash is fraudulent. But, no, the LABOR that is stored in that fraudulent “container” is not fraudulent–it is REAL. When Collin destroys the bond, he will also destroy however much of your labor is contained within that bond.

      OK–maybe you’re not rich enough or dumb enough to own any bonds. But maybe you have a mortgage for a $250,000 home. If you just got the mortgage, you will not have made many mortgage payments so your equity in the home may be almost zero. If Collin can cancel all of the debts, your mortgage will be cancelled and you will get a $250,000 home for little more than your downpayment. Yay! You’ll have beat the system. You’ll have robbed the fraudulent bankers with your own fraud and acquired a $250,000 home for virtually nothing. If anyone questions your integrity or honor, you’ll be able to say, “No, I’m not a crook. I just happen to have a home that I didn’t pay for–but it’s OK because I took it from a crooked banker.”

      OK. Good for you.

      But what about your grandfather who is, say, 62 and just a year or two from retirement, who’s invested the savings of his LABOR of his LIFE in making 30 years of mortgage payments on his own $250,000 home. His equity (the amount of LIFE and LABOR he’s invested in that home) might be $240,000. When Collin cancels all the debts, he’s going to cancel your grandfather’s mortgage, too. Grandpa will finally own his house free and clear, but what will it be worth?

      Given that all the youngsters who bought $250,000 homes just before cancelled all the debts got their homes for little more than a $20,000 deposit, and therefore only invested, say, $25,000 in the home, how many of them do you think would be willing to sell their “$250,000” home for just $50,000? If they get in a bind and the see a chance to double the money/savings they invested in their home, why not sell?

      Under this debt cancellation scenario, it seems to me that the price of homes will fall dramatically. If so, your grandfather will suddenly find his $250,000 home (including over $200,000 of his own LABOR and SAVINGS) to be suddenly worth only $50,000. Grandpa’s SAVINGS from a lifetime of labor will be thereby wiped out. Good ol’ grandpa, the guy who used to bounce you on his knee and taught you to fish, will find him retired and almost penniless because Collin cancelled all the fraudulent debt instruments.

      But there’s a silver lining in this tale of woe. Just as you could trade your REAL/HONEST LABOR for fraudulent currency, and then trade your fraudulent currency for fraudulent bonds, you could also choose at any time to trade your REAL/HONEST LABOR for fraudulent currency and then trade that fraudulent currency for a REAL/HONEST ASSET like gold or silver.

      Likewise, if your grandpa learned that the whippersnapper Collin was about to void all the debt instruments, your grandpa could beat him to the punch, sell his $250,000 home, convert his $200,000 in equity into fraudulent paper dollars and then purchase say, 150 ounces of gold.

      The advantage to owning gold rather than paper bonds or paper mortgages is that gold will protect the value of whatever LABOR and SAVINGS you use to purchase that gold. This protection may not be perfect, but it’s infinitely better than the virtually absence of any protection that will exist in paper-debt-instruments after Collin pulls the plug on all the debt.

      My point is that the gold will provide the most reliable protection for the value of the LABOR and SAVINGS used to purchase that coin. If Collin cancels all of the debts, those holding their SAVED LABOR in the form of gold will still have savings and may even find themselves enriched. Those holding paper-debt-instruments will find the SAVED LABOR that they invested in their paper-debt-instruments to be virtually vaporized.

      Am I beginning to make any sense here?

      Storing your SAVED LABOR in the form of a paper-debt-instrument is similar to investing your money with Bernie Madoff. He’s a fraud, and you’ll be robbed of your SAVED LABOR. The fact that you invested fraudulent fiat dollars with Mr. Madoff is unfortunate, but largely irrelevant. Those fraudulent dollars are the last resting place for your SAVED LABOR. Whether the cash you invest with Mr. Madoff is fraudulent or legitimate is irrelevant. If Madoff steals it, your SAVED LABOR is gone forever.

      If you store your your SAVED LABOR in the form of a paper-debt-instrument, and Collin cancels all the debts, you will have lost all of your SAVED LABOR.

      Is the current system riddled with fraud? Yes.

      Will the current system collapse under the weight of the fraud? Yes.

      But is the system based entirely on fraud–or–at the base, do we find honest labor, real work, and SAVINGS? A: There are honest savings at the system’s foundation.

      Therefore, when the fraudulent paper-debt-instruments are rooted out and destroyed much of the SAVED LABOR that lies at the foundation of the whole fraudulent system will also be destroyed. Once those real savings are destroyed, I can’t see how the financial system can continue until new savings are generated and collected.

      There’s a parable in the Bible where the “master” sees that his field of wheat is full of weeds. His servants tell him that the weed seeds must’ve been planted by an enemy. The servants want to pull the weeds out, but the “master” says No–if you do, you’ll also tear out the good wheat.

      I think we’re in a similar situation today. We have a financial field that contains both: 1) the real SAVED LABOR of honest men and women; and 2) the fraudulent paper-debt-instruments of a bunch of dishonest bankers and politicians. Collin wants to pull the fraudulent paper-debt-instruments out by the roots (a solution so simple, even a 3rd grader can see it).

      I’m sitting here saying that if we destroy all the fraudulent paper-debt-instruments right now, I’m pretty sure that we’ll also destroy all of the HONEST SAVED LABOR that’s stored in close proximity to that fraud. I’m not telling anyone that my opinion is the word of God. But I am suggesting that those of you who are so sure you’re right that you don’t even need to consider the possibilities I’ve suggested, may be heading for moment that you may find to be both enlightening and painful.

      • Collin

        February 12, 2014 at 9:07 PM

        Adask I’m not saying pull the plug TODAY Am all for addressing the fed and government ahead of time and let them know just what we have planed if they continue there recklessness ! And it should include going after the enablers of the fraud ! The bankers want pandemonium in the streets ! So there going to keep going FULL speed over the cliff ! they have already proved that sense 2008 ! they haven’t fixed ANYTHING ! In fact these BONEHEADS in Washington passed OBAMACARE ! so you must conclude they WANT TO DESTROY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ! even a 3rd grader can see there not acting in our interest at ALL !

      • Collin

        February 13, 2014 at 4:45 AM

        Justice Martin V. Mahoney was murdered 6 months after he entered the Credit River Decision on the books of the Court…

        A Minnesota Trial Court’s decision holding the Federal Reserve Act unconstitutional and VOID; holding the National Banking Act unconstitutional and VOID; declaring a mortgage acquired by the First National Bank of Montgomery, Minnesota in the regular course of its business, along with the foreclosure and the sheriff’s sale, to be VOID.

        This decision, which is legally sound, has the effect of declaring all private mortgages on real and personal property, and all U.S. and State bonds held by the Federal Reserve, National and State Banks to be null and VOID. This amounts to an emancipation of this nation from personal, national and State debt purportedly owed to this banking system. Every True American owes it to himself/herself, to his or her country, and to the people of the world for that matter, to study this decision very carefully and to understand it, for upon it hangs the question of freedom or slavery.

        The Credit River Decision

        Judge Martin Mahoney wrote the following about a case he ruled over, The First National Bank of Montgomery v. Jerome Daly, December 7, 1968 : (See 17 Am. Jur. 85, 215, and 1 Mer. Jur. 2nd on Actions, Section 550).

        There is no lawful consideration for these Federal Reserve Notes to circulate as money. The banks actually obtained these notes for the cost of printing. A lawful consideration must exist for a note…

        The activity of the Federal Reserve Banks…and the First National Bank of Montgomery, is contrary to public policy and contrary to the Constitution of the United States, and constitutes an unlawful creation of money and credit for no valuable consideration. Activity of said banks in creating money and credit is not warranted by the Constitution of the United States.

        The Federal Reserve Banks and National Banks exercise an exclusive monopoly and privilege of creating credit and issuing notes at the expense of the public, which does not receive a fair equivalent. This scheme is obliquely designed for the benefit of an idle monopoly to rob, blackmail, and oppress the producers of wealth [you and me and our ability to work and be productive].

        The Federal Reserve Act and the National Bank Act are, in their operation and effect, contrary to the whole letter and spirit of the Constitution of the United States, for they confer an unlawful and unnecessary power on private parties; they hold all of our fellow citizens in dependence; they are subversive to the rights and liberation of the people.

        These Acts have defied the lawfully constituted Government of the United States. The Federal Reserve Act and National Banking Act are not necessary and proper for carrying into execution the legislative powers granted to Congress [See Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States] or any other powers vested in the government of the United States, but on the contrary, are subversive to the rights of the People in their rights to life, liberty, and property…

        No rights can be acquired by fraud. The Federal Reserve Notes are acquired through the use of unconstitutional statutes and fraud. The law leaves wrongdoers where it finds them. Slavery and all its incidents, including peonage, thralldom, and the debt created by fraud is universally prohibited in the United States. This case represents but another refined form of slavery by the bankers. Their position is not supported by the Constitution of the United States.”

        Two weeks after Judge Mahoney ruled in favor of Daly, and wrote the above, he was assassinated.

      • hogorina1

        January 5, 2015 at 11:10 PM

        All wealth is derived from the agrecultural industry. The growers are ripped of in buying up food as cheap as possibe, Inflation increases as the food gose from industry to industry. Karl Marx nailed this as stolen wealth.Most of the big time farmers, corporations are oaid not to plant, this is to food on the market at a high price. The tax pay in order to hang themselves. Food is used to control people. One cannot eat gold or silver. Money represents food. You seem to grasp the situation pretty well—have a nice day.

  7. UglyTruth

    February 12, 2014 at 1:18 PM

    Wealth is not limited to money. Historically wealth was measured by real property, i.e. land, and by productive assets eg livestock. When the US currency collapses the economy will return to being based in reality rather than in fictions. The only rational course of action is for people to transfer their existing wealth into real assets. This is simply an exercise in recognizing value, which of course isn’t limited to tangible assets.

  8. tom

    February 12, 2014 at 2:34 PM

    There is a process to follow of wealth/goods being transferred into new types of instruments once the old instruments have perished and I disagree with Collin in that you can not just assume the assets. Maybe these old assets will go to the bankers since it is “thier money” (frns) you used to buy the asset with, keep in mind market forces quickly depreciate those and bankers will try to unload them if at all possible, further the new wealth created will quickly overtake old business that can not adapt to the changes especially if they are legacy or valuing thier worth upon old debts.

    Again using your analogy of “termite infested house”. Once such an asset is realized to be a total loss a move must be made to reestablish/build/rent another house. This means looking outside the box, you are not limited to just that house and perishing with it. There are millions of houses and other opportunities. Offcourse you suffer loss in such a manner, readjustment can be painful but this economic situation is different from loosing the house to “termites”. In actuality the house will remain-the instrument will be detroyed, so in this instance the consequences are not as bad as you make them out to be.

    Hate the way you explain “assets will dissappear” with the “paper”. Now you know this paper wealth is really not the way assets should be dealt with in a healthy economy. If they are no good they need to be extinguished, repudiated, expunged, or whatever but they can not be constantly chained about the necks of men to be born upon into imperpetuity. A cleansing must occur to allow better use of assets otherwise further hardship will follow just as in a fleshly body.

    You are right to say get into real assets and it is troubling to know people will be hurt but its gonna happen either way and the longer the cleansing/chastiment is put off the more painful it will become. Men that have put thier stock into bonds when the collapse comes will have no one to blame but thier foolishly ignant selves as the warnings have been around now for a long time. It is thier duty to take the time and learn economics but they want to continue to prop up this broken system whether consciously or unconsciously either through falsely believing thier assets are safe or greed. No— the wise are not gonna be robbing themselves.

    If you put all your wealth in frn’s, get ready for a haircut, if in gold or silver be ready to buy assets for cheap. This was a manisfestation of the 2008 correction. Say you had expendable assets and bought $100,000 in gold in 2000 with gold being about $250 an ounce or you bought a house say in Florida for the same amount. Now keep in mind these trends were noticable even back then. 2008 comes around that gold is now worth 5x that amount and the house has lost more than half its value. Same could be said if you invested in the stock market vs. gold. Back then you could have took a little of the value out of gold and bought maybe 2-4 houses and still have been ahead. Yes, this is hindsight but this will be happening again just to a greater degree – same trends. So to guess whats what worth is a litttle disquised because of constant fluctuations but thinkn in this manner can clear it up a bit re: $250,000 savings.

    Yes, government has always been a parasite and been robbing wealth, grandpa was decieved into accepting paper for real wealth. However modern folk have also been decieved into thinkn of retirement. Look to Scripture to see if any of the great men back then retired. No, you are not goin to begin diggin ditches again but as you get older the wealth in your mind is much greater than what your physical body could ever achieve. The biggest thing I hate about death is after a lifetime of correcting false beliefs and gaining knowledge you leave that all behind. You can leave the assets behind but the knowledge was the true power behind the wealth accumulation.

    Paraphrasing but somewhere the constitution mentions “when in the course of events breaking accords” is a viable option. So dont worry if some entity 3000 miles away is going broke. Think local, forget global. You have your neighbors, family, friends, etc.. that you can see with your eyes, you can relate with them, share your love and experiences with. Those others only try to capture your mind to extract from you. If your dependence is on them you will be in big trouble. No dilemma, use some asian fighting art, step aside let the inertia of the weight of the giant keep falling (its really just a clay idol that will shatter), under no circumstances get caught under, pickup yourself up after the blowback, now you can begin to really prosper, the way will be cleared up for you. You should never have been focused on that image in the first place but now it will be clear to see around. Thats the path you should go either way.

  9. collin

    February 12, 2014 at 4:15 PM

    And Adask WE have to pay for three houses to get one with this banker FRAUD ( $100,000 house your 30 year payments come to about three times the sale price of the home on average AND FRAUD VOIDS ALL CONTRACTS IN LAW so stop saying I want my cay and house without paying for it over the last 30 years I’ve lost a house I paid on for 11 years paying the bank back more than I borrowed ! And the BANKSTERS got the house back and the money they loaned me back and then resold the house they got FREE FROM ME This is why WE have boom and bust cycles ! it’s THE BANKERS RACKET BUT Adask doesn’t have the sense of a 3rd grader So I see now he doesn’t understand these things And Adask the chaos will come ether way And more so if we let it ride as long as possible as you would like !

  10. Martens

    February 12, 2014 at 8:02 PM

    As mentioned by Collin, a debt with compound interest is impossible to pay when you also have to borrow the interest. That’s the bind we find ourselves in.

    What can’t be paid, won’t be paid. So the question is not IF we’re going to default, but HOW we’re going to default.

    As mentioned by Jetlag, the answer is: since we must default, it’s to our advantage to at least default selectively.

    Meaning, the US should not default on all its bonds at the same time. Rather, “restructure” the national debt so we default on some bonds first, and other bonds last (or never). This way we spare the personal savings of American citizens.

  11. Adask

    February 12, 2014 at 9:37 PM

    Collin previously wrote how his proposal of canceling all of the debt would allow people to make a “FRESH START” in their homes, lives and “BUSINESSES”. He’s absolutely right. It’ll be great! Cancel all the debt and we will all have a chance for a “fresh start”. Similarly, if we start a 3rd World War with nuclear weapons, we (those of us who survive, at least) will have an opportunity for a “fresh start” as we scramble for rats to eat in the rubble. (Try to avoid eating the rats that glow in the dark).

    But let’s suppose that Collin gets to cancel all the debt and I take advantage of my new-found chance for a “fresh state” in business. See, I’m pretty smart and I’ve got one helluvan idea for making a new widget. Everybody’s going to love my widgets and want to buy them and I feel certain that I and my employees will get rich making widgets in a way they’ve never been made before.

    So, tomorrow I’ll hire Collin as my master machinist to start setting up the tools and dies needed to make my widgets. We’ll hire some help for Collin to supervise, and expect to have our first 1,000 widgets produced within a month. I’ll hire “tom” to handle sales and advertising so that retail stores will want to buy my widgets, and I’ll hire Cynthia to work the office and take the orders for widgets. I’m guessing that it’ll take a month or more of sales and advertising efforts generate our first sales, and then another week or two to ship the widgets to the retail outlets, and,of course, the retailers will want at least 30 day before they actually pay for the widgets–and if they pay by check the banks (if such exist after all the debts have been cancelled) may want a week or two to clear the retailers checks. But, once we get through this four or five months between when I start manufacturing widgets and when I see my first profits, I expect to get rich.

    So I really, really,want to thank Collin for making this “fresh start” possible by cancelling all the debt.

    Except for one teensy-weensy problem. How will I pay Collin and all his help during the first four or five months between when we start making widgets and when we MIGHT first receive any payments? How will I pay “tom” for his sales and advertising efforts? How will I pay Cynthia for working the office and taking orders?

    In fact, how will I pay the steel distributor for the raw materials needed to make widgets, and how will I pay the electric utility for the power I need to run the drills, mills and lathes in my factory? How will I pay MYSELF? How will I eat, pay for the electricity in my home? Even pay for the water I might want to drink or bath in?

    Will my employees and suppliers agree to work and provide the steel and power I need for four or five months before I (hopefully) can begin to pay them? (Of course, if my widgets aren’t as successful as I believe they’ll be, I may have to close my plant after four or five months and my employees and suppliers won’t get a dime.)

    See, when Collin voided all the debts created this fabulous “fresh start” opportunity, he also voided all of my savings and all of his savings, and all of “tom’s,” Cynthia’s, the steel producer’s and electric utility’s savings. As a result, it’s virtually impossible for me to find enough money to pay my help, my bills and myself for the first four or five months after my business opens (I think I’ll call it the “Fresh Start Widget Manufacturing Company”.)

    Are you beginning to catch my drift? It doesn’t matter if I own the plant, and the drills, mills and lathes needed to make widgets. Where can I find enough employees who are willing make and sell widgets for four or five months without being paid? How will they survive? If I don’t have savings or I can’t borrow any money, I can’t proceed to make and sell widgets even though Collin’s glorious “fresh start” is possible.

    Ohh, I might be able to hold off the steel producer. I could promise to pay in 30 days knowing that he would see a dime for six months. It’ll be harder to bamboozle the electric, phone and water utilities for six months–but I might be able to pull it off.

    But what about Collin (he’s such a damn trouble-maker, always mouthing off, thinking he’s right, taking order from for prescient 3rd grader)? I don’t think he’ll work for four or five months without pay. Maybe if he was hungry enough (and that could happen pretty quickly after he cancels all the debts) he might be willing to work for pennies an hour (like a Chinese coolie). Same thing with “tom,” Cynthia and all my other employees. If I could borrow just a few dollars, I might have enough to pay my help like peons for the first four or five months. And once they were in the habit of being paid just pennies per hour, I might be able to keep ’em working at the rate (kinda like slave labor) for months or years into the future.

    I wonder what race Collin is . . . . If I could persuade my brother-in-law (he’s a congressman, y’know) to push a law through Congress that declared Collin and his race to be slaves, I keep him working 80 hours week for just food and a set of coveralls.

    But if I can’t find slave labor, or extremely dumb labor, or extremely desperate labor, there’s virtually no way to open the “Fresh Start Widget Manufacturing Company” without first having some SAVINGS.

    And that’s why I contend that the “one and only” solution to the National Debt problem (cancelling all debts) is not a solution at all because it will inevitably also cancel virtually all SAVINGS. When the savings are lost–even if they’ve been stored in the form of fraudulent paper-debt-instruments–the economy will go into a state of paralysis that will not be alleviated except by foreign investments (foreign savings) and/or people willing to work for pennies per hour for several years until a few people can generate sufficient real savings to once again invest real wealth in our “fresh start”.

    I hope that those of you who disagree with my assessment will tell me how you plan to take advantage of Collin’s “FRESH START” without first having some saving? Yes, after Collin cancels all the debt, you may own your car, your house and even your factory, but who do propose to start operating any of them without savings? And if you can’t start operating, how do you propose to keep operating and generating a wage for your workers and a profit for yourself?

    If you can’t explain how to implement the “FRESH START” without savings, then please show me how it is that the fraudulent paper-debt-instruments don’t actually “contain” the STORED LABOR of American workers. That “stored labor” is our national SAVINGS. Cancel the debt, and you cancel the SAVINGS, and then what?

    Then, we be screwed.

    If you don’t have real SAVING in the form of gold, silver or something tangible, when Collin, or Obama or just circumstances cause the National Debt to be repudiated, you’re gonna be in deep, deep excrement.

    On the other hand, if you have real SAVINGS after the debacle begins, you may be able to buy cars, homes and businesses for pennies on the dollar. If you have enough savings to hire people, you may be able to employ scores of people at wages that make “minimum wage” look like a fortune.

    We’re going to get our “fresh start,” alright. Those who get the “fresh start” and have savings, may do very well. Those who merely have a “fresh start” but no savings may be ruined.

    Point: I don’t care if Collin voids all debts and you get to keep your house and your car for free. If you don’t have real savings, you won’t be able to drive your car or heat your home. If you don’t have real SAVINGS, you will be screwed.

    • Collin

      February 13, 2014 at 12:05 AM

      The following interview was conducted in a similar manner as was conducted in the best selling book series “Conversations With God” by Neale Donald Walsch. Although I do not possess the same intimate knowledge of spirituality as Mr. Walsch, my 15 year journey following precious metal markets has connected me to some very powerful spiritual monetary beings…and they have something to say. So let’s begin.

      Me: Is anybody there?

      God: Yes, I am here.

      Me: Hi God! How do I do this? I read the books but I don’t want to sound like I’m anyone special because I can talk to God.

      God: But you are special…we all are. You just ask your questions and the answers will be provided by your thoughts. Don’t stop to edit your thoughts. Just trust your answers and we will both provide the answers we need.

      Me: Ok. I’ll start with an easy one. Are gold and silver markets manipulated?

      God: Of course they are… Duh!

      Me: Wait, is God supposed to say duh?

      God: Don’t waste my time. What’s your next question?

      Me: Who is doing it and why?

      God: There are many groups of people who manipulate all markets and they all have different reasons. Some are driven by money, some by power but the largest group is driven by fear.

      Me: Fear?! These people control the world…what could they be afraid of.

      God: They are afraid of you and people like you. They are afraid they will be found out and the world as they know it will come crashing down. They are afraid that the people of the world will begin to understand the fiat money fraud and will be angry.

      Me: Well don’t the ones with the money, the rich and powerful, make the rules? Why would this ever end?

      God: The “rich and the powerful” are only rich with their monetary illusion. Without fiat currency they are not rich and their power crumbles. The rules will be changed very soon.

      Me: How soon? I thought this would be over years ago. What will stop them from running this scam FOREVER?

      God: You are stopping them…and people like you. There is also a group of people who have been working on taking these people down much longer than most know. They have been hoarding physical gold for many years and are preparing to go on a gold standard. They have been VERY secretive but they are ready to end the fiat money system.

      Me: When?

      God: They will pull the plug very soon…

      Me: Who are these people?

      God: They are mostly very patriotic Americans but also others around the world including a very powerful group within China.

      Me: Wait. Won’t China be hurt by the destruction of the US Dollar since they are the largest holder?

      God: No. It was part of the plan. China never wanted US Dollars. They wanted to build their manufacturing infrastructure. Multi-national companies have spent Trillions building their factories in China. The destruction of the fiat currencies will leave China very well off.

      Me: Doesn’t China need the US to sell all their goods at stores like WalMart?

      God: No. China has over a billion people. There is no shortage of domestic customers only a shortage of those fiat pieces of paper.

      Me: What about Globalization?

      God: Globalization will end with the fiat currencies. When the fiat money crashes every country will fend for themselves and take care of their own needs the best they can.

      Me: What will happen to the United States?

      God: They will benefit the most since they have the highest debt and the most natural resources.

      Me: Wait what will happen to debt? People are drowning in debt in the US.

      God: All debt will disappear without the fiat currency and a new monetary system will be put in place in each country. Fiat money will end.

      Me: Since we NEED some kind of money, how will the new money get distributed?

      God: There are many equitable ways but the best is through the Social Security system. In this allocation system those who are the oldest and have made the most money over the years will be allocated money first and in equitable amounts. This will also SOLVE the Social Security “problem” that has hung over the US Dollar for decades. This was Alan Greenspan’s idea back in the early 1970’s when he implemented the first computer market rigging programs.

      Me: So what will happen when the fiat system crashes? Will it be good, bad or the same?

      God: Like any change there will be some pain BUT most of that pain will be felt by the small number of very wealthy. 99% of the population of the world is already in pain and will FINALLY get to share in the wealth of their nations. They will feel rich because the wealth will be reallocated.

      Me: Isn’t that kinda socialistic for the American system of government?

      God: It may feel like that to the rich but this would be a one time occurrence. A “restart” of the American Way that was stolen by the fiat money crowd. Just imagine no more debt and a more equitable distribution of the wealth of the USA. Almost everyone would feel like millionaires overnight!

      Me: Sounds great! Will the currency be backed by gold and silver again?

      God: The founding fathers never meant for the money to be “backed” by gold and silver. The money of the United States of America IS gold and silver. Period. If people chose to use paper script in lieu of carrying around metal that will be their choice. There is also no problem with many forms of money as long as they are transparent so there may spring up other methods of payment such as paper, electronic credits and barter. Individuals will be free to choose their own forms of money. Ultimately, gold and silver will prove to be the most sound of all the monetary choices available.

      Me: What if the current “Powers-That-Be” don’t allow any of this to transpire?

      God: They have no choice. The power lies with the people now and although the bad guys continue to fight their defeat is at hand. The intent is to have a peaceful transition but there are some within the manipulation crowd that are resisting to the very end.

      Me: Where does the power to overthrow the bad guys come from?

      God: The power has always been with the people but the tools being implemented are within the financial computer systems of the world. The end of the fiat money system has been programmed in and is only awaiting the execute command. The world will change overnight.

      Me: I’ve been studying and preparing for this for years yet I still feel very afraid of this kind of drastic change. Is there anything I can do to prepare?

      God: Yes. Be prepared for a few months of chaos. Keep enough food and water on hand in case the transition takes longer than we hope. But most of all have faith that this is a VERY GOOD thing for humanity.

      Me: Is there anything else I should do?

      God: Yes. Get some sleep and stop thinking about all this stuff. Spend time with your friends and family

      • J.M.

        February 13, 2014 at 12:53 AM

        @ God: Yes. Get some sleep……………………………………………….”
        Sounds to me like somebody talking to himself. I do that too.every now & then

      • J.M.

        February 13, 2014 at 3:36 AM

        I did read your entire “God & Me” comment before I posted my comment of, > Sounds to me like somebody talking to himself. I do that too.every now & then. I will add this. >.Everything in your God-Me message was & is from the mind of a man or of/from men.

      • Russell Arms

        June 29, 2015 at 2:09 AM

        @ God: “No. China has over a billion people. There is no shortage of domestic customers only a shortage of those fiat pieces of paper.”

        It takes 1,000 million to make a Billion The Bible, in Revelation 9:16 speaks of, two hundred million horsemen, aka, mounted troops. Horsemen is defined as, hippikos: cavalry. Calvary is defined as, Military. the part of a military force composed of troops that serve on horseback. mounted soldiers collectively. the motorized, armored units of a military force
        Could this scripture refer to China? HMmmmmmmm. I believe it does.

  12. Adrian

    February 13, 2014 at 2:13 PM

    America has a big problem.Is not the debt,is the absence of a real government.
    If we all get together and form a government of,by and for the people then we can solve all our problems..
    We have no debt,we have natural resources,we can take care of ourselves.
    We need a fresh start.

    • J.M.

      February 14, 2014 at 4:19 PM

      @ > America has a big problem.
      One of the, if not the main problem is, America has too many Adrians.

  13. Art Simpson

    February 13, 2014 at 2:40 PM

    Cancel the debt. The Fed is out of a job, and the people keep the property.

    • J.M.

      February 13, 2014 at 6:12 PM

      Art, Adrian, Collin,et al,
      I know you have heard, “send them a message.” How about sending them a message this way
      I think if we could get together & hold hands, this just might be the solution, good idea, or no? If we can get together & hold hands & in unison say, cancel the debt, 2-3 cancel the debt 3-4 cancel the debt 2-3 cancel the debt 3-4 cancel the debt & on & on AND if each of us would have on a pair of USED < (this is important) BROGANS & clicked our heels in unison, after each unified, cancel the debt call, the sharp shrill sound of the Brogans coming together, in unison, would send out a message so loud & clear it will be deafening to those who can cancel the debt AND I believe they/he/she WILL cancel the debt to get relief from this overwhelming shrill sound. Give me your feedback. If you like this idea, I will then explain why the brogans MUST be well worn & to the extent that they are almost worn out. Believe me, this IS CRITICAL !!! Otherwise, we will be holding hands in vain, for naught. The more I think about this idea, the better it gets. NOW LISTEN, you have to & you MUST give this idea serious thought before you respond. The more you think about it the better it gets. Try it, you'll like it. Anxiously awaiting your response. Very rarely do I ever come up with an idea.this good. I must admit it is one of my best yet. And, as you know, I love to share

      • Russell Arms

        June 29, 2015 at 2:18 AM

        @ February 13, 2014 at 6:12 PM
        WOW !!!!! DID I SAY THAT??? I am going to have to give myself a PAT ON THE BACK. I did not know I was that INTELLIGENT !! I AM PLEASED WITH MEEEEEEEEE!!!! Yes I know I’m not a lot but i’m all I got & I AM PLEASED WITH MEEEEEEEE !!!! Not PROUD !!!! PLEASED. Big difference, or as EDUM says, deference. D Just MORE of LES. D

  14. Anna von Reitz

    August 3, 2014 at 6:18 PM

    Here is what you are not remembering, Adask—- WE are the PRIORITY Secured Creditors of the “National Debt”—– in a debt-credit monetary system, every time you create a debt for one person you create a credit for another. In this case, debts owed by JOHN QUINCY PUBLIC result in credits owed to the living man john-quincy:public. There is in fact no such thing as a “national debt”. We are on a perfectly level playing field. The rats in charge are simply keeping everyone focused on the “debt” side of the equation instead of the credit side—-so we won’t ask who has been collecting the credit side of the account “in our names” and not giving it to us? Well, we now have the answer—- The United States Department of the Treasury (1789) and the North American Water and Power Alliance.


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